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33 1.7 16V not starting

 
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:01 am    Post subject: 33 1.7 16V not starting Reply with quote

Hi

About an year ago I rebuid the engine of my 33 1.7 16V QV (non cat), put it back on, connect everything but when I tried to start it, it didnīt start.
At the time I discovered a relay (right side) that was broken inside, replaced it with the same Bosch part number, but even with the relay replaced the car didnīt start.
I was furious with the car and everything and I put it on the garage, didnīt look at it for about an year.
Now I decided to check what is the problem and solve it...
Mechanically it is fine, it has compression, all wires are conected on the right place.
When I try to start the engine it turns fine with all signs of compression and it seams that it is going to start, but nothing.
If I crank it for about 2 or 3 seconds it tries to start (apears to start for a moment) but nothing...
If I crank it for some seconds it tries to start fot some times but never starts.
I used a spare Spark disconnect HT lead from cilinder 1, connected it to the spare spark, tried to start the engine, and each time the engine turned I saw a strong apark.
Next I removed the injectors of the left side from its place and checked that they spray fine...
So, I dont understand... I have compression, I have new 98 ron fuel, the injectors spray fine, I have spark... but it doesnīt start!!!

Iīm confused, and need some help please.

Thanks
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Ian M
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 911
Location: Bath Somerset

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had this problem with a series 2 qv a while back, I had fuel and spark and it refused to fire.
I even tried easy start and still no life.
I fitted various new parts in the ignition system and it eventually started after I put in a new coil.
Turns out that even though there was a visible spark it just wasn't strong enough.
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niaugi
Alfa Arna


Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi,

have you some bang from exhaust when long cranking?
if it were rpm sensor problem, you would have no spark at all.

so, if there is compression, air, fuel and spark, you must have a combustion.

i think problem is:
1. spark firing not in correct order. must be 1 3 2 4
оr
2. wrong timing.
3. low fuel pressure

does your timing II&I looks like this?
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
Turns out that even though there was a visible spark it just wasn't strong enough.


It is strong for sure, I have experience how to check that. Smile


Quote:
have you some bang from exhaust when long cranking?


No bangs Smile


Quote:
so, if there is compression, air, fuel and spark, you must have a combustion.


Thats what makes me confused...


Quote:
1. spark firing not in correct order. must be 1 3 2 4


Its correct... checked and rechecked... Sad


Quote:
2. wrong timing.


Quote:
does your timing II&I looks like this?


Timing is fine. That part I didnīt do it my self but as soon as I got the engine back home I checked those points you showed on the pic and everything match...


Quote:
3. low fuel pressure


Thats the only thing I dont know and I dont have the tools to check...
But I know the injectors spray just fine, because I saw that with my eyes.
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niaugi
Alfa Arna


Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would recheck firing order one more million time Very Happy maybe 1&3 2&4 leads are exchanged, and fires not at compression phase, but at exhaust phase..

was something done to the flywheel? RPM sensor is fittet stright? you should use a strobo light to see if cyl1 wire is firing near TDC when cranking to be sure Timing is 100% ok. (do not know exactly if spark is not advanced when cranking ).

and how about compression test? maybe compression escapes very fast..

when my engine did not start after rebuild, i sprayed carb cleaner a bit into intake throttles, and engine fired up for a few seconds instantly, so you can try this too. (my problem was silly - injectors were disconnected, but now i know how easy is to make a combustion with some carb cleaner).
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember something similar in a forum with a 16v:

are you sure camshafts are not been exchanged (in with out) Question
in that case you will have visual correct timing on pulleys
but not correct compression versus fire timing in the heads..
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its alive... Laughing

It just started!
I talked with a good friend of mine that is an Alfa specialist and just by hearing on the phone the car trying to start, he told me that probably the engine would be fine and to check the sparks, that probably they would be wet of fuel because of me trying to start it lots of times, to clean them and try again.

And it worked!!!

I just replaced the 2 spark plugs on the right side and the car started on those 2 cilinders.
The ones I removed were very wet with lots of fuel.

Today Iīm happy but also tired and will not do anything more on the car. Tomorrow I will try to start it again and if it will only start on the right side, I will replace the 2 Spark plugs on the left side...

I will give you some news on the weekend.

Thank you all. Smile
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niaugi
Alfa Arna


Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh my god Very Happy
it is always better to start from simple things Exclamation
only strange, it did not start after long standing in garage..
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
only strange, it did not start after long standing in garage..


Youīre right
Its strange.
I didnīt change anything, I only checked conections (and they were fine), and if the timing was right!!!
But now I know it starts, at least in 2 cilinders, só later in the evening I will try to start it again and check if the spark plugs from cilinders 2 and 4 cleanned, if not I will have to remove them and replace (or clean), and they are a pain to remove and to put them back.
My only problem is that on this end of the week Iīm busy and will have very few time available but for sure I will do something on the car.
It has a ton of dust and dirt on it, so even if I dont touch the engine, Iīll have a lot to do on the car, inside and out.
Now that it works, I want to put it on the road and drive it.
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I didnīt have much time because I had to replace My 156 1.8 TS lambda probe.
But I removed the fu#$ing plugs from the left side, cleaned them and put them back.
Now the engine works on 4 cilinders. Very Happy
But my hands and arms hurt because it was a strugle to remove them. Sad

Tomorrow Iīll do nothing on the engine, I will clean all the inside. Smile
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BigAl
P4


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 2990
Location: U.K Surrey

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done, nice one Smile
Always good to hear that another one is running
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alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changing the spark plugs on the 16V heads is horrible! A friend of mine found an good way to take care of it though.

You need two long tubular spark plug sockets like the one on this picture :



The first one you keep it intact. The second one you will have to cut it in half.
To change the spark plugs:
You start with the socket that you kept intact. You use it the normal way to apply some torque when you start unscrewing the plug. You can put a screwdriver through the holes to have a better leverage instead of the small lever from the picture.
Then halfway through the job, before there isn't any space left for the full length socket, you switch for the small one you cut in half.
For this last part the spark plug will be usually easily unscrewed by hand so there is no need for holes on the tool.

best regards
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itīs still alive, but the problem is still there.

Today I tried to start the engine and it didnīt start again.
Remove 2 spark plugs and again they were full of fuel.
Cleaned and put them back and it started again... :/

So the problem is, if it doenīt start at first time the plugs become full of fuel and it doesnīt start until I clean them.

One question: How many turns from "close/min" has your air flow meter screw?
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know the resistence value of the water temp sensor?

Thanks
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eagle3
Alfa 33


Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 402
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5,500 ohms @ 0C
2,500 ohms @ 20C
325 ohms @ 80C

Pressure regulator possibly? Just guessing. Obviously an injection issue anyway.
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.

So mine is fine.
yesterdey night I checked and found 2500 ohms, the car is on the garage and the temp was probably near 20š C

Problem still here, if it doesnīt start at first time, the plugs decome full of fuel and it will not start until I take them out and clean. Sad
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any chance that the injectors are leaking? You can remove the fuel rail and observe the injectors for leaking in a jar or a container.
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alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Any chance that the injectors are leaking? You can remove the fuel rail and observe the injectors for leaking in a jar or a container.


No they are not.
I did almost that, I removed the left fuel rail and saw them spray nicely.
Not leaking, just spray...
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eagle3
Alfa 33


Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 402
Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you put new spark plugs in? What spark plugs are you using?

You said you cleaned them. Were they particularly sooty?

It might be worth getting the injectors cleaned and tested. Then check fuel pressure to the injectors which should be about 2.5 bar.
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