Alfa Pages Forum Index Alfa Pages
A forum for help with the Alfasud And Alfa 33
 

So my 33 just caught fire...

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Alfa Pages Forum Index -> Boxer Workshop
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: So my 33 just caught fire... Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

long story short I finally took some time to put the engine back on my 16v 33.
Started the engine for the first time yesterday, everything went great, good iddle and everything.

Today I give it a try again and after a few seconds, BAM the engine catches fire Shocked ! I suppose it originated from a burst fuel line (and more precisely, the one right after the pressure regulator that goes to the driver-side injectors). By the time I reached for the fire extinguisher, the flames were quite high. Hopefully they were quickly put down and no innocent bystander was harmed.

My first question is, would this kind of incident cause a lot of harm to the engine ? The fire was located in the back of the driver-side engine head, is there a risk that the gasket was blown ? The fire burned there for maybe 2 or 3 minutes maximum...

Will post a pic of the aftermath soon

Thanks for any input !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and also, I think the fire started due to the fact that I did not put the exhaust back on the engine, which was a pretty silly thing to do Rolling Eyes so maybe the hot gases were enough to ignite the whole stuff.
Might also come from a spark caused by a defective electrical connection.... Again any input on that is welcome
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally here is the pic



Cleaned the powder after that... the paint on the block is still in its original condition and since its max temperature rating is 140°C I think it is safe to believe that the fire did not exceed 200°C... Same thing can be said with the one I used on the engine bay.

A lot of stuff has been obviously damaged, such as water pipes, electrical connections... My main concern is still the head though. The cover gasket seems in good gondition but I wonder if the head was damaged (it's in aluminium and it is said that these kind of engines do not like sudden heating...)...Any input welcome !

The fuel lines made from hard plastic that go from the tank up to the front of the car melted a little so I believe I will have to change them too, preferably with something stronger (I'm clearly not going to take some used parts after what happened).

If more pics are needed I will gladly take some too.

Thank you !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
john 33_16v
16 Valve


Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1406
Location: herts, uk

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least no-one was hurt.

As long as the cambelts/ tensioners are unaffected you could try a compression test on that side to check the head/gasket. This could be done on the starter motor after disconnecting the coil and fuel pump.

Good luck


John
_________________
If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Nylon fuel pipes on the intake are the best solution the manufacturer has installed. If you go to rubber hoses then they will fail every month... The best solution is to find a replacement pipework.

We would like to see photos of the engine and the repairs you are doing Wink
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answers,

As John suggested I will try to do a compression test for this week-end.
Gritsop : I am afraid that original spares for the fuel line that runs on the top of the engine are very hard to find... And I'd rather not use a second-hand part after the incident. A friend told me about using braided fuel lines, they seems pretty solid compared to the thin factory lines, does that sounds like a possible solution ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may use braided hoses provided that they are not rubber under the outer layer. Factory supplied fuel rail is nylon and wrapped in heat proof material, in order fuel which runs on the inside doesn't evaporate.

In my opinion OEM fuel rails are suitable as the nylon hose is heat-shrinked where it is inserted on the rail along with a special o-ring. Braided hoses which have a nylon internal surface are not adequate to be leak free where it meets the fuel rail.

I can understand you being sceptical on using again another fuel rail but keep in mind that most of the times, fuel leaks can happen on these two areas which have rubber hoses.

1. Upstream and downstream of the pulsation damper
2. fuel filter outlet port.

My guess is that the fire was caused from any of these two areas.

Regards
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK so I'll go for original nylon hoses then, although I still have to figure out where to get the spares...

On another note, I've noticed that part number 2 in the following drawing :

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi?MOD_COD=133&COUNTRY=012&GRP_COD=412&CAT_COD=W6&SBMK=R&DRIVE=D&MAKE=R&COMM_MODEL=33&ALL_FIG=0&LANGUAGE=3&PREVIOUS_KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&NEW_HTTP=TRUE&ALL_LIST_PART=0&SB_CODE=-1&KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&PRINT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&GUI_LANG=3&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=1&SGS_COD=0&DRW_NUM=4

was also damaged by the heat. My question is : is this boot very important for the steering and is it easy to change it with the steering in the car ?

Thank you again

And of course I will soon post more pictures !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eagle3
Alfa 33


Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 402
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part 2 is just a plastic cover which can be removed through the wheel arch. It just pulls off.

Although not essential it stops dirt and water getting on the rack. I would think you had a leak around the fuel filter. Possibly the copper seals for the banjo connectors.
_________________
Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK cleaned the bluish powder today. Couldn't get rid of all of it even after emptying 3 brake cleaner cans ! But I suppose that will be enough, what is left is like stuck on the parts and is not going to get inside the engine while repairing it...

Here is a pic of the engine bay before the fire :



Hard to look at it now Crying or Very sad

Anyway I have been inventoring all that needs to be changed. Most parts would be ok to find, except for one plastic rod which is part #2 in th following drawing :

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi?MOD_COD=133&COUNTRY=012&GRP_COD=102&CAT_COD=W6&SBMK=R&DRIVE=D&MAKE=R&COMM_MODEL=33&ALL_FIG=0&LANGUAGE=3&PREVIOUS_KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&NEW_HTTP=TRUE&ALL_LIST_PART=0&SB_CODE=-1&KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&PRINT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&GUI_LANG=3&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=22&SGS_COD=1&DRW_NUM=2

I'm ready to buy it if someone has it... Will keep you in touch on my progress...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and apparently the leak started right at the beginning of the injection line. Banjo copper rings were not involved because I had changed them a few months before Crying or Very sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ian M
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 911
Location: Bath Somerset

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give Alex Poulter AKA 33bits a call He will probably be able to help you with parts.
His phone number is 07896327708.
_________________
Presntly own
Red Abarth 500c
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alfa per la vita wrote:
OK cleaned the bluish powder today. Couldn't get rid of all of it even after emptying 3 brake cleaner cans ! But I suppose that will be enough, what is left is like stuck on the parts and is not going to get inside the engine while repairing it.....


You may find that the powder is soluble in water. If it is blue it should be sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), not the best for fuel fires, but, hey, it worked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Ian for the tip. I'll remember that Wink

Hopefully Gritsop managed to track down all the parts I needed for the repairs so far.

The fire extinguisher contained ABC powder - or was at least rated for ABC-class fires. If it is indeed ABC powder it is apparently both corrosive and abrasive Rolling Eyes . I protected both the exhaust and the intake to make sure that nothing gets inside anyway. Some new parts I had just put on the engine already showed some signs of superficial rust a few days after washing the engine bay with water. Will see how this turns out !

I'll probably start repairing the electrical stuff this weekend. I might not be able to work as fast as I want on the car at the moment but I'll keep you posted !

Thanks again to everyone

EDIT : RFlower you are right it seems that it is indeed baking soda. Which is weird since it should be rated BC instead of ABC Confused
If an engine fire happens to anyone : ABC powder is corrosive and is usually yellow. It should not be used on engines. BC powder is white-bluish and is "only" baking soda. So I guess I should be OK. The rust I saw must have come from the water I used to clean the engine bay.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Johnpm1967
Alfasud


Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 32
Location: Tewkesbury

PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been reading with interest. I teach chemistry and so may be able to help. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate and baking powder also has an acid in it. Both are used to release CO2. One is a base an alkai in water the other is both so fizzes when adding water (CO2). Use plenty of water and a brush. It is residue damp which will cause harm.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Admin
Site Admin


Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 1223
Location: Stafford, UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Petrol isn't that flamable (unlike petrol vapour). It shouldn't ignite from just heat and needs a spark.

However running the engine without the exhaust you effectlvely do have something to ignition it (the burning gas from the exhaust).

All the best

Keith
_________________
I owe, I owe, its off to work we go.
Bimota Forum
Stafford Christmas Lights
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I am now almost certain that the fire originated from the exhaust gases (and more precisely, the ones from the fourth cylinder). It is very unlikely that it came form an electric spark (it was only 14V maximum after all). However the temp of the exhaust gases are nearly 800°C while the auto-ignition of petrol is 250°C... That wil teach me!

Concerning the powder residue, it is really a pain to get rid of it. I took out all of the damp residues but there is now a very thin layer of whitish powder on some metallic parts. If I put water on it it will dilute but as it dries it will come back. Will try to use some household cleaning products on this...

I have rewired the injectors, the coil and the temperature sensor. The connectors for the injectors are of Bosch EV1 type.
I am waiting for the spares from Gritsop now...

Best regards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also when I rebuilt the engine I could not find the proper paper gaskets for the front and back engine cases so I used black Loctite. I think it cannot whitstand high temp like a burning flame on it but so far there is no oil leak... keeping my finger crossed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alfafan
Alfasud


Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 83
Location: Coimbra - Portugal

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Nylon fuel pipes on the intake are the best solution the manufacturer has installed. If you go to rubber hoses then they will fail every month...


Why do you say that?
What does the 33 16V has that is different of other cars?
I have other injected models more powerfull than the 33 and they have rubber hoses.
You can buy normal fuel hoses, and hi pressure ones, and these last are a lot stronger than the normal ones, and never had a failure on them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine who is also reading this forum had sometime in the past the very same incident like our friend had. The fuel rail was burnt and since then he has been using rubber fuel hoses in the place of the nylon rail.

We have tried cloth braided hoses, high pressure hoses all at being quality products and after a couple of months use they start to crack. It is not a nice thing to have almost 60cm of fuel line in rubber ready to crack and spill fuel on the engine block. The manufacturer was clever enough to use nylon fuel line wrapped in heat proof material - otherwise he would have used rubber hoses all around and have many points of failure.

If I compare eg the 147 to the 33, the 33 has around 10 small (approx. 10 cm) fuel hoses from the tank to the engine whereas the 147 has only one fuel hose located on the engine bay. The line from the tank to the engine is solely nylon. Image what would have happened if there were more rubber lines or if the 33 - which has around 10 small hoses - had another ~60cm of rubber hose... You would have many points of failure which mean fire hazard.
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I finally put everything back in the car, thanks again to Gritsop for tracking down the parts I needed.

However I now have some trouble getting the car starting! I have no spark at all. I checked the tension at the coil and it stays at 0 no matter what I do.
Will check on the workshop manual what may have gone wrong... And keep you posted with my findings!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alfa per la vita
Alfasud


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 32
Location: France

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: It's alive! Reply with quote

Finally figured out my problem last sunday! Somehow I got mistaken when I redid the wiring that had burnt...

Everything is cool and undercontrol Cool (for now...) with a good idle speed, hope the engine won't die on me now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Alfa Pages Forum Index -> Boxer Workshop All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum