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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:50 am    Post subject: New battery or not? Reply with quote

I just went to start my car, 06:00 very slow cranking then nothing. Then the alarm went off, doh! I managed to turn off the alarm with the remote and tried to start again, nothing, alarm went off again. This time I couldn't turn it off with the remote so I had to open the bonnet and manually turn off the alarm with the key. I used my beanie hat to muffle the sound and managed to fumble my key in the dark into the slot, no analogy intended. I’m sure the neighbours loved me!
I last used my car on Monday, so 5 days in the cold with only the ECU, hands free kit, car stereo and alarm draining power, has killed it.
How long should a battery last in the cold, as I normally only use the car once a week or after five days? It has been fine up until the cold spell when it started to start the car, albeit with a little slower cranking speed.
The battery was fully charged late June.
Should I try charging it again and when the car is not in use, disconnect the radio, hands free kit, car alarm and ECU, to see if they are the cause?
I read that you should not have more than 0.03 Amps parasitic drain.
Can i do a drain test on a flat battery or should i charge it first?
I'd hate to find the same thing happened with a new battery and to find out it was a parasitic drain.
Can I safely assume the charging system is ok as I haven’t had any problems until the cold, or should I just buy another battery?
If so what make of battery would you guys recommend?
Great start to the New Year.
Thanks Alan
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eagle3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could just disconnect the battery earth and leave it for 5 days and see if it retains the charge.

You haven't said how old the battery is. They don't last forever and certainly don't like being left out in the cold if they're not charged up.

You can certainly check the charging system by putting a voltmeter across the battery terminals whilst the engine is running. It should read about 13-14V for revs above 2000, even with all the lights, fans, wipers, hrw etc working.
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The battery read 10.5v, I did the parasitic drain test and found that the fuse in the furthest right column, third down “yellow 20A” was draining 0.03 on the 10A range on my Multi Meter. When I removed this fuse, the reading was 0.00
I have left the - terminal not connected and when I left, the battery voltage was at 11.5v
I went to take a picture of the battery but because I left my camera phone on the frozen windscreen, the battery died lol, how ironic, I couldn’t save any details about the battery in my phone’s jotter either.
I will now look and see what that fuse is for, think it’s for the horn, but I’m not sure what else this powers.
I will return shortly with battery details.
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

battery is a
Hoppecke duplex plus
made in germany
maintenance free
555 066 042
DIN EN 60095
12V 55Ah 420A

I cant see a date on it
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john 33_16v
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5 or so days will usually kill my connected battery in the cold. I try and remember to disconnect it after a run.

Once a battery has been flattened they are usually never as good again.

In my experience a battery usually lasts about 5 years at full strength.

If buying a new battery for a car you intend to keep, don't skrimp. A decent battery is a good investment. Go for quality like bosch etc.

I recently got a battery for my old Clio which was a Yuasa. I know this Jap brand from bikes, but was told that they only recently started doing them for cars. It wasn't cheap, but was very good. The car turned over noticably quicker etc etc. I'll get a Yuasa for the 33 soon, as the 6 year old bosch is a bit iffy, as i've flattened it so many times too.

John
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eagle3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
think it’s for the horn


Horn, brake lights, cigar lighter, autoradio according to the manual.
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to mention that the hands free kit drains another .01A, the top right fuse also drains another .01A, this did the central locking. This was with the alarm still off, dread to think what that will drain. So I’m up to 0.05A drain.
I currently have the hands free phone kit wired up directly to the battery, I will re-wire that and try and find out what on the horn circuit is draining, I think 0.1A on the central locking circuit is ok???
I will try and charge it up and see if removing the fuse for the horn works, if i cant find out whats doing the drain.

Bring on the Branston Battery Best Buys, lol, what to get?
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eagle3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Batteries up to 65Ah are recommended, especially if you have the "check-control" system. A few more Ah wouldn't do any harm as long as the battery fits the tray.
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TYPE 063 12 VOLT DIMENSIONS mm = 207L x 175W x 175H
Eagle3, i was under the impression that the 65Ah = how long the battery will keep ouputting, as in Amps per hour, so if there is a drain of 1 Amp the battery would last 65 hours, 1 week = 168 hours, so couldn't that number be as high as possible?
I also think that the other number, 420A, in my case is the crank output, which is the most Amps it puts out when starting the engine, this might have to have a limit, as too much Amperage could damage soemthing?? What do you think.
I found these batteries.
http://www.tayna.co.uk/batterygroups/4/063-Car-Batteries-page1.html
http://www.carbatteryshop.co.uk/mb-33-Petrol-1983-1994-I475.html
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_264227_langId_-1_categoryId_165762
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_264157_langId_-1_categoryId_165762
And a review that actually rates the halfords batteries in second and third place but are well expensive, anyone know much about calcium batteries and if there worth it?
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/products/210431/car_batteries.html
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john 33_16v
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varta are usually pretty good al'
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to start the car again after leaving it with the battery not connected, 8 hours but no joy. I managed to bump start the car as I could see out of the windows now that they weren't frosted over. I drove it to my friends and back, to borrow his battery charger, with the heater fan on on the way there, only a 3 mile journey. When I got back I popped in and got my Multi Meter and did a few tests.
I started the car ok and I turned on the following
fan heater
rear window de-mister
hazard lights
main lights on full beam
fog lights front and rear
interior lights

I still had the right third down fuse disconnected, so no horn ect.

on fast idle the voltage across the battery was 12.06V
on tick over it was 8.5V

with nothing on I got

on fast idle 13.42V
on tick over 13.42V

engine off and nothing on it dropped from 12.23 to a steady 12.02

I was still getting a 0.01A drain as I had the top right fuse still connected.
Bear in mind that this is a battery that has not been re-charged, will I still get the same results with a fully charged battery?

I have a spare brush/diode pack "EDIT (VOLTAGE REGULATOR) EDIT" ready to go on, would this be enough or does the alternator need refurbishing?
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Admin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Would expect more than that short a journey to put a decent amount of charge in it.

That said, the battery on mine seems to be on its last legs. Seem to have killed it from running it flat (the alarm in mine will kill a battery in about a week if turned on, switch the alarm off and it will last FAR longer).

On the Maserati we had an issue with the battery lasting about 4 days before being dead. Problem was the tracker unit fitted, and that pulled 0.79 amps.

All the best

Keith
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith,
I was surprised it even charged the battery enough to be able to restart it, considering my previous test results and only drove as I didn’t want to walk, coz I’m lazy and it was cold Laughing
After 12 hours on trickle charge @ 2Amps and left to settle down, the battery now shows 12.93V.
I thought a well charged battery was supposed to be 12.65V and if lower than 12.02V needs charging?
I will fit later with no drains on the battery, do some tests to see if the alternator is working and if not replace the VOLTAGE REGULATOR
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reconnected the battery and drove for about 4 miles, I then did a few tests.
with everything on as before + the radio and wipers, I got.

idle 12.10V
fast idle 12.40

with nothing on

idle 13.66
fast idle 13.66

I drove back and the battery had dropped to 12.89V and is currently on a condition cycle, I don’t think there is anything wrong with the battery.

Do you guys think that my alternator is at fault as I thought there should be 14V when charging?

Looking at bobbbers alternator overhaul there is mention of testing the diodes inside which convert AC to DC. I read that if you bypass the regulator with a wire, and then measuring the voltage at the battery. If it was 1/2v or more above the normal battery voltage, then the regulator is faulty. If it is under 1/2v higher, then it is the alternator. Help please.
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eagle3
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The alternateur brushes may be wearing a bit thin. Just my personal thought anyway. I don't think the regulator is at fault.

Quote:
with everything on as before + the radio and wipers, I got.

idle 12.10V
fast idle 12.40

with nothing on

idle 13.66
fast idle 13.66

That's quite a difference. They shouldn't be that far apart.
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icky
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al,
If you do get a new battery, Write the date on it with a felt tip pen.

Most Battery places will happily throw a load tester across the battery that will pick up any dodgy cells, this may be reducing the available amps.

If you are worried about the battery discharging whilst not in use, there are small solar trickle chargers available that plug into the ciggie lighter.

Cheers
Ian
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eagle3
Quote:
That's quite a difference. They shouldn't be that far apart.

So do you think it’s the battery? The regulator and brushes is one complete unit.

Icky
I had been thinking about getting one of those as my car isn't used that often, my mate, who no longer drives, thinks he can give me his old one, if he can find it and i will buy him a drink me thinks.

Now I have found what circuits have the drain on them, I can just unplug those fuses until I find out what is causing them.
The thing I don’t get is that when I had a flat battery, on tick over the battery was only showing 8.5V on tick over under load, shouldn't it be more like 14V so it charges the battery? Now, with a fully charged battery it shows 12.10V on tick over under load.
Is everything o.k. and just down to my drain on the battery?
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john 33_16v
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

icky wrote:
Al,

If you are worried about the battery discharging whilst not in use, there are small solar trickle chargers available that plug into the ciggie lighter.

Cheers
Ian


In the UK that would probably add a further drain Laughing

John
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been told, by my mate who i will owe a drink, that they just need daylight, not direct sunlight, which is a good thing, as you say in th U.k Laughing
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eagle3
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to run the engine at at least 2000 rpm. The alternateur won't charge at all at idle.

But as you only had 12.4V at fast idle with everything switched on compared to 13.66 with nothing on, that would suggest to me that the brushes are worn.

Of course the battery may be a goner as well. But you can get it tested before buying another.
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagle3
Quote:
You need to run the engine at at least 2000 rpm. The alternator won't charge at all at idle.

I think that’s a quirk that all us 33 owners know about Laughing and I did indeed rev above 2k before letting it idle

The battery is holding 12.95V after that condition cycle and left for a few hours.
I am about to change the regulator and test again.
I'll pop back and update and then try and find out what’s causing my drain.

3rd fuse down right column
horn, lighter, radio, brake light, fuse box lighting
Thanks eagle3

top right fuse
clock, roof lights, fuse box lighting, central locking
Looked in the manual Laughing
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I now get the following

Nothing on
Idle 14.09V
Fast idle 14.02V

Under load
Idle 12.00V 0.10V lower
Fast idle 12.40V no change

However after the load test I got

Nothing on
Idle 13.88 0.22V higher
Fast idle 13.88 0.22V higher


I have read the following

ANOTHER QUICK CHECK FOR BOSCH ALTERNATORS
One way to check the integrity of the alternator and diodes on Bosch alternators is to check the voltage readings at the D+ (blue wire) terminal and B+ terminal. The voltage reading should be the same at both terminals. A difference of more than one volt would indicate faulty diodes and the need to replace the alternator.
Bosch does not recommend full fielding as a procedure for testing alternator output because full fielding may damage onboard electronics.

I couldn’t do the drain testing as I accidentally tested for voltage when the MultiMeter was still set to test current, DOH!


I have stopped the drain for now by leaving out the two fuses.

Have i just wasted my time?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Al , hes my 2 pence worth, you have too many gadgets in the car wired on permanent live wires. The readings your getting seem fine for the car (bear in mind I have a voltage gauge fitted to the 33). I was advised not to use windscreen blowers and heated rear window and headlights at the same time as the battery will never get a charge back on any journey. Your battery will never read a correct voltage as its under load even when the cars not in use and will show signs of deterioration even after a few months of being new, I think your right about moving the hands free kit off the permanent live it will help the longevity of the battery. Also do you have a stereo with amplifier(s) in the motor because they really drain the voltage unless you fit a cap. IMHO halfords calcium batteries are Cr*p I know I had 2 within 18 months, the hoppecke one you have are good but the latest gel filled batteries should be the way to go 100% maintenance free. Just a story for you my mum had a brand new sierra 2l ghia several years back and in the short journeys to her work and back in the dark, in traffic , it used to eat batteries every 6 months!!, the problem was the car was barely outputting voltage back to the battery as she had switched everything on radio, lights ,hrw, heater blowers and wipers from time to time it went back to ford 4 times and the warranty meant they got new battery every time, the problem stopped when my dad started to use the car for his work and it had a longer journey to do and he drove it like a bloke would Wink .
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your 2 pence, I’ll raise you a fiver Laughing
I was thinking of a Voltage gauge but it won’t be able to tell you if there is enough cranking power left in the battery.
How do you get around not using the heater blower and rear window heater in the freezing cold spells? I normally start the car, get the alternator charging by revving a little and let the car idle with the heater blowing on the window and the rear window heater on whilst I scrape my windows, usually on the outside, then I drive with the lights on. Did Alfa under rate the charging system biased towards their warmer climate as I think that’s not too much to ask, even having the radio on as well???

I wired the hands free kit direct to the battery as I liked the idea of being able to answer my phone if I’m working on the car. I think I will just add a switch.

The stereo has both the battery backup and power wired directly to live as I don’t like the idea of having the ignition on just to have the radio on when the engine is not running, not that that happens that often, another switch maybe? I have an amp and sub which are only turned on via the exciter wire from the head unit.
I’ve always wanted to fit a cap and another battery in the boot, but never got round to it. I couldn’t live without my music as this is my first ever amp and sub combo transplanted from my red ser 3.

The Hal fords batteries are quite expensive as well, but after what you have just said that’s even more incentive to stay clear of them.

I’ve been reading up on batteries and finally the technology is beginning to move forward, due to new electric cars I guess. Other than gel filled batteries, I read something about some material that has a higher surface area compared to the plates so it resists scaling and holds a longer charge

I normally do two long runs in one day, once a week and an eight mile round trip occasionally four or three days prior to or after the long run.
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BigAl
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagle3 wrote:
You need to run the engine at at least 2000 rpm. The alternateur won't charge at all at idle.

But as you only had 12.4V at fast idle with everything switched on compared to 13.66 with nothing on, that would suggest to me that the brushes are worn.

Of course the battery may be a goner as well. But you can get it tested before buying another.

what do you think now? doesn't seem to be much of a change, diodes in the alternator??
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