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Newbie challenge - removing heads to inspect tappets
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Bobkelso's "bolts" refer to the usual exhaust clamps.

He is suggesting to leave the manifolds connected, then loosen just the rear connection clamp, and then the front clamp only after the rear section is loosened and removed.

That is the method I use. If the pipes are still in good condition and not corroded so thin that they twist or collapse, it is usually possible to twist each join back and forth a very small amount, pulling at the same time, until it eventually comes apart. I also squirt some WD40, diesel, or similar, into the joint.

I must admit I have a pit, which does make the job a bit easier Embarassed

You are going to have to split the joints one day, to change something. If you do it now you can put some copper grease in the joint to make it easier next time Wink
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..ehm..yes..

'bolts'= exhaust clamps
'rotate each other'= twist

ect..sorry..I learned some english at school and by
films/internet blog, I still know few terms of mechanic 'Laughing'

Thank RFlower, it is what I meant, as also my non cat 33
has exausts joined the cheap way (one overlapping the other)

I learned this method after a mechanic
(yes, is the same evil one that use the flame on the joint 'Evil or Very Mad')
destoyed my exaust system by using hammer and finally cutting it..

I don't knew the copper paste..Now I go to ask fot it.
Actually when I mount the exausts I use a grey paste
for exausts, maybe is similar, that dry in few minuts.
It was a very good progress use it, because it avoid
every air leaks (no rumor and no problem at CO exausts controls)
and it form a protection against corrosion inside the joint.
It is also quite easy when unmounting the exaust,
as the dry paste breaks easily as dry mud when twisting 'Smile' the pipes.
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool thanks for the explanations.

The manifold does twist inside the joint slightly but just haven't managed to pull it out.
Once out it probably won;t go back in.

So taking the other option of swinging it to one side and then putting the axle stand back up.
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brit01 wrote:
cool thanks for the explanations.

The manifold does twist inside the joint slightly but just haven't managed to pull it out.
Once out it probably won;t go back in.

So taking the other option of swinging it to one side and then putting the axle stand back up.


You'll probaly never pull the manifold off the pipe because the pipe is not solidly fixed. That's why the manifold should be left bolted on and the other part twisted.

I have never had a problem getting the pipe back into the joint.
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobkelso wrote:


I don't knew the copper paste..Now I go to ask fot it.
Actually when I mount the exausts I use a grey paste
for exausts, maybe is similar, that dry in few minuts.
It was a very good progress use it, because it avoid
every air leaks (no rumor and no problem at CO exausts controls)
and it form a protection against corrosion inside the joint.
It is also quite easy when unmounting the exaust,
as the dry paste breaks easily as dry mud when twisting 'Smile' the pipes.


The grey paste is exhaust sealant, something like cement, it doesn't really prevent corrosion except by keeping moisture and muck out of the joint.

Copper grease is simply a heavy grease containing copper powder.
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, but I think in reality Brit01
moves as an artist 'Wink'
so he don't want do things as
we or other do, actually he is
enjoying in finding his personal
method for remove exausts 'Very Happy'

Keep us informed of progress!
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we go before I took the heads off and removed the pistons/oil sump etc.

Rods should be back from the workshop tomorrow with new small ends to match the new gudgeon pins.
Very Happy
You can see how I got past the exhaust manifold issue.

[url]

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[url]

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Brit01
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great job done on my small ends.

New pins and honed small ends to fit. Perfect. Very pleased with the result and delivered to my house by the mechanic.
Totally different feel to the old ones.

We had a small chat and he was impressed with my knowledge of the Alfa flat four. He thought I had worked in the UK. Lol.
All self taught and of course a lot of assistance from experts on these forums.

Regards

Chris
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

more progress made.

Engine back in.
Hubs being repaired as 2 bolts were shagged when removed.
Also having some new allen bolts made.
new outer boots purchased also.

rad moved forward 2 inches to allow a second fan installation on the left side. Smile

[url]

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[/url]

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[url]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/url]
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
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Location: S of France

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found half of the bolts holding the hubs were stripped on the Sprint. Serviced by main Alfa agent in Mallorca at the time - they have been long gone, even in Spain you can't get away with sh1t work for ever Very Happy

I successfully repaired them with thread inserts similar to Helicoil, and new bolts. The insert kit was a lot cheaper than having a workshop do the job, and I didn't need to dismantle everything.
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luckily labor costs are relatively cheap here.

He's repairing the hubs with new bolts for about 35/40 quid.
Not too bad I guess. Bolts are kind of unique also

Repair kit would have probably cost the same here even if I could have found one.
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Very Happy
nice see your project progress.

Changing the suspension I had same problem with the hub holder,
same bolt of your photo, the lower one, I don't know if is because
is the more exposed to water and rust or because being the most
exterior is the one that people tend to screw more strong
imagining is more 'important' than the others..

Ok..now I'm sorry for my 'school' english,
I'll be very..very..very long trying to explain 'Shocked'
I was in a hurry, so I only used a longer bolt adding a screw nut.
The other face of the hub, where I wanted put the nut,
is not in plane in the area for a large nut, but is better on
a small area very near the hole, I put on the bolt before the nut
an iron ring spacer, more thin in diameter than the nut,
but quite thick (6 or 10 mm), like a section of a small pipe.
This way the small diameter of the spacer and the elasticity
of spacer and bolt make an almost in plane assembly for the nut
(and now there was also the space for torque the nut).
I try re-torque it after some time to verify if it was still sane, and it works.
Of course not an optimal or elegant solution..Rolling Eyes Wink

Ps: when you had the old hydraulic lifters by hands,
had you seen if they are of the type that can
be opened tapping it on a wood plane
to inspect and clean the inner chamber and valve ?
Or the only thing that is possible to do to verify if they
are sane is see the time necessary to squish them
and get the oil out? Question
(I read of internet somebody that squish them
using a vise and fill them with gasoline,
doing that more times, to clear the inner
chamber from dirty deposits;
some others say that they directly open them
to clear and verify all, is it possible? )
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was in a hurry, so I only used a longer bolt adding a screw nut.
The other face of the hub, where I wanted put the nut,
is not in plane in the area for a large nut, but is better on
a small area very near the hole, I put on the bolt before the nut
an iron ring spacer, more thin in diameter than the nut,
but quite thick (6 or 10 mm), like a section of a small pipe.
This way the small diameter of the spacer and the elasticity
of spacer and bolt make an almost in plane assembly for the nut
(and now there was also the space for torque the nut).
I try re-torque it after some time to verify if it was still sane, and it works.
Of course not an optimal or elegant solution..Rolling Eyes Wink


I wouldn't risk messing with these bolts. Very critical attachments hub/suspension. Imagine those coming loose at 140 kms/hr!

Quote:
Ps: when you had the old hydraulic lifters by hands,
had you seen if they are of the type that can
be opened tapping it on a wood plane
to inspect and clean the inner chamber and valve ?
Or the only thing that is possible to do to verify if they
are sane is see the time necessary to squish them
and get the oil out? Question


Old OE tappets were destroyed on the faces, didn't even bother trying the removal/squish method. Straight in the bin.

The new INA ones were removed after 1500 kms ish and firmly pressed and all tested ok. Faces also mated in nicely with the new cams.
All back in their cam boxes now.
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john 33_16v
16 Valve


Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1406
Location: herts, uk

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engine/gbox and engine bay look superb.

I went the helicoil route a few years ago -
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5839&highlight=helicoil

John
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brit01

"..Imagine those coming loose at 140 kms/hr! .."
I hope Question that Alfa calculated you can have 2 bolts on 4 failing and
still strut resists but giving some signal to the driver for long time
before also a 3'th bolt fail

But you are totally right, it will be better not modify original assembly..
(because also if I'm thinking it will keeps in practice the same force
than original, may be I'm wrong). You have done the best thing.
It's my (bad) habit do modifications. To my excuse Rolling Eyes
I say I'm screwed on mecanic and projectation from children age,
building different strange things and studied some theorical basis Wink
Still I have few experience about motor total rebuild, so I found this
forum very interesting (but I'like also that people can joke here)

Ps.: for the hydraulic lifter, I know your old where bad,
I read all all all your posts. I asked if lifters
were servicable because I was thinking to mines!
I'll have to open heads and try to verify and select
good ones beetwen my hydraulyc lifters, also
I have to decide if search some spares on advance
(new alfa lifters If I found them or used heads from donor cars)
or not before starting the work Wink ...

Question 1)
Someone here have played with an old 33 hydraulic lifter
trying to open it or to clear it by squishing?

Question 2)
Someone know if keeping a spare boxer motor stopped
for long time (example 2 years in a dry garage)
can adverse the condition of his hydraulic lifters?

Because I learned that using a donor motor stopped
for years with some valves in the open position,
valve seats could be or not damaged by oxidation,
and it will be better professionally polish valve seats before
re-use the motor or his heads to avoid the risk of burn a valve;
same for valve coils, in principle they could be also damaged
if the valve remain in the same open position for long,
but this can be easily verified;
So I want do it right in my nexth heads rebuild.
What I really don't know is if also hydraulic lifter internal
valve can be damaged if stopped in the compressed position
for long time, or can get dirty with deposits if not getting
fresh oil for long, and how to verify them
when I have them by hands..Question
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really if you suspect any lifters are bad, best practice to replace all of them. they are not expensive. As long as the cams are good also.

Is it really worth the effort to dismantle each one, even if you can?
I tried on my OE ones and the valve would not loosen.

You don't really want to mix and match the lifters either. Each one mates with each lobe and leaves a 'fingerprint'.
Do not change the tappets around to different locations.
IMHO if any are bad change them all. You don't want to have to open the heads again in 6 months because another has failed.


Wink
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


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Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

" Do not change the tappets around to different locations."

Ok, It seams a good idea, thanks.

"Is it really worth the effort to dismantle each one, even if you can? "

My little dilemma was: If I don't find Alfa original ones lifters
I could try to re-use original Alfa lifter if they are perfect externally,
and if I could verify them also in the internal functionality Confused
Or change only the one actually is not properly working, and verify
the others, as in theory they are almost new, motor has only 70.000 km
and don't consume a bit of oil, (300cc every 10.000km, when I do a new
oil change) only problem was it was keeped stooped too long Confused

"You don't want to have to open the heads again in 6 months
because another has failed."

This is a very solid argumentation, I'll think about it Rolling Eyes

"I tried on my OE ones and the valve would not loosen."

->->->This is interesting to me. Can you give me some more detail
on this try? <-<-<-Very Happy So maybe I can compair with used one.

What I imagine, about lifter, they should be good externally but also:
- drain oil out very slowly (but how much slowly?
and compressing it by hand or by a vice?)
to avoid tickling at low oil pression/ or during starting motor
- don't bee completely blocked, to avoid to burn a valve
- internal cilinder should get himself expanded by his internal
coil at the right rate in oil bath (getting oil in)
- internal chamber and valve should be perfect cleaned
by deposits to avoid risk of future fail..

Ps.: are you moving the radiator just for the second fan
or are you thinking to get space for a power steering pulley?
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rad moved forward just for an extra fan.
We had 40 degree summer in the shade this year. 55 in the sun!!!!!

I just tried banging the tappets on a piece of wood and pulling out the inner valve. - no luck so gave up.

Maybe you can soak the tappets in kerosene. This should clean out the crap.

Also once started up the oil I assume will be recycled withing the chambers.

I paid 100 USD for 8 new INA tappets.

If you remove them always mark which bore they came out of and put them back in the same ones.




[/b]
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This weekend was productive and not.

Front cross member on. New threaded hubs on and car back on the ground! Very Happy

Driveshafts with new grease attached with some new allen bolts.

Rinsed out the water system and then filled it up with green stuff.
Oil in, carbs primed.

Started it up without plugs just to run it a couple of rotations.
Didn't go well.
Starter motor hesitated, spun a bit then stopped.
Then nothing.

Tested all voltages. Braided cable to motor only measured 0.8 volts when key is turned. All other cables measured the normal voltage.
Possible solenoid shagged.

Took it all out and took my jump leads and tested the motor. Motor fine!

So I bought a new solenoid today.

Another week behind schedule. If it was the solenoid then it should get fired up this weekend.

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Did you check that the ground wire for the engine has been reconnected?

Regards,
zp
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes all ground wires connected. There were several on a L shaped attachment on one of the starter motor bolts.

I think I will attach a 3mm earthing cable from the bolt directly to the battery earthing bolt on the body to be double sure.

Also clean the contact area between the back plate and starter motor.
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Btw, make sure that the ground current from the starter motor to the block is notblocked by a layer of paint.

Regards,
zp
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
OK. Btw, make sure that the ground current from the starter motor to the block is notblocked by a layer of paint.


you read my mind lol.

I was going to sand away the surfaces as I recently painted the rear plate!!

Just occurred to me the other day.

Still I'm going to add an extra thick earth cable from the starter motor to the main battery earth connection to the body.

Wink
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New solenoid and clean ground surfaces with and extra earth cable: started up like new first time Very Happy

120 km test run and cam shaft seal leaked. Sprayed oil everywhere inside the engine bay and around the left wheel!!

Took off the pulley and the seal dropped out on the floor!!!!!

Was a bit awkard but managed to squeeze in a new seal. Hope this one stays put!
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might try and put a couple of shims in between the back plate and across the edge of the seal to keep it pressed in so it can't just pop out.
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