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Wanted: Gearbox Mainshaft Pilot Bearing

 
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:24 am    Post subject: Wanted: Gearbox Mainshaft Pilot Bearing Reply with quote

Does anyone know where I can get the above - also called Gearbox Driveshaft Bush, please?

It is a small bush which sits in the back end of the crankshaft, inside the clutch centre, and supports the front end of the gearbox input shaft.
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is number 15 here?

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi?MOD_COD=133&COUNTRY=012&GRP_COD=101&CAT_COD=W6&SBMK=R&DRIVE=D&MAKE=R&COMM_MODEL=33&ALL_FIG=0&LANGUAGE=0&PREVIOUS_KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&NEW_HTTP=TRUE&ALL_LIST_PART=0&SB_CODE=-1&KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&PRINT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&GUI_LANG=0&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=3&SGS_COD=0&DRW_NUM=1

Searching cod/alfa/fiat 60502897 or 60516703:
http://www.ricambinuovi.com/store/_it/prodotto.asp?idp=3433


Or is something here?

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi?MOD_COD=133&COUNTRY=012&GRP_COD=212&CAT_COD=W6&SBMK=R&DRIVE=D&MAKE=R&COMM_MODEL=33&ALL_FIG=0&LANGUAGE=0&PREVIOUS_KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&NEW_HTTP=TRUE&ALL_LIST_PART=0&SB_CODE=-1&KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&PRINT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&GUI_LANG=0&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=7&SGS_COD=0&DRW_NUM=2
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

I think it's probably 15, which Google translates as bushing.

16 translates as grain, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but I think it might be a dowel or an insert. Anyway, there are 3 of them in one version, so it's probably not the bushing I need.

I think that 14 - "gear" - is the oil pump worm drive gear.
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, is the bush 15 ( weight 35gr ), as you say it sits in the back end of the crankshaft.
(the 16 is a small insert, in italian is "grano", weight 7 gr)

Something available on web searching his cod number
(cod/alfa/fiat old code 60502897 or new code 60516703)
http://www.ricambinuovi.com/store/_it/prodotto.asp?idp=3433

Maybe available also from alfa as is a commom part
with 145/146 boxer version.

Previously I never pay attention to that bush, now I understand
why after I get a new clutch assembly I still have rattling noise
at idle from clutch area when I put gear in neutral
(probably because I didn't change also the bush..)

It will be interesting to know if it is easy to make
a mod to put a bearing instead of the bush, on other old
cars is a mod that I heard about..but probably it will be fine
also simply get a new bush next time I open the clutch.
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks Bob.

I'll try the local agent later next time I venture into town.

I don't have a lot of faith in them, last time I visited, about 12 years ago, looking for timing belts for the Sprint.

They didn't have a fiche for the Sprint, so I told them the belts were probably the same as those on later cars with the boxer engine, but they didn't know what an Alfa boxer engine even was.

Eventually I had the phone someone for belts for an 8 valve 33 or boxer 154 and managed to get them a week or two later. I think they were a tooth or so short but I manged to fit them.

Nowadays I get most parts online, but that doesn't work in France for other than service parts.
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes I know normal alfa / fiat centers don't like people asking them for old spares,
they are terribly small minded in that sense..opposite than other vendors..

May be someone more skilled than me could replace the bush
with a needle bearing (using same type/class of bearing
used in modern engines if the right diameters were found)
or with a custom bush made by the lathe turner with the right metal.
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 388
Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

this is a bronze bushing, any decent machine shop can make one for you.
I don't recommend using a needle bearing - shall this seize you'll have to replace crankshaft and mainshaft as they will be knackered (ask me how I know)
Bronze bushing can get shot but will be the sacrificial element.

regards,
zp
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZeNiTh-PbArM wrote:
Hi,

this is a bronze bushing, any decent machine shop can make one for you.
I don't recommend using a needle bearing - shall this seize you'll have to replace crankshaft and mainshaft as they will be knackered (ask me how I know)
Bronze bushing can get shot but will be the sacrificial element.

regards,
zp


I believe the bushing is sintered bronze (oilite bushing), which requires specific machining techniques - even if the machine shop has sintered bronze stock to make it from.

http://www.lm-tarbell.com/machining_sintered_bronze.htm

Not having had much luck with specialised machine work in this agricultural area - they are good at making wine, though Very Happy - I usually use a machine shop in Figueres, who have always done superb work.

As this is a bit far to go to have a little bush made, I'll try to get it from the Alfa agent here.
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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eagle3
Alfa 33


Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 402
Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sintered means it's bronze powder moulded under pressure to the form then heated. This gives a certain porosity to the material(heating causes the powder to bond but leaves pores between the grains).
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 388
Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

right. It's the same stuff which is used for starter motor bushings, etc.
I have machined some of the stuff and it's not that difficult. Carbon steel tools work the best and these must be razor sharp.

regards,
zp
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really nice information, thanks everybody Very Happy
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked at the local Alfa agent today. I was told the bush is no longer available, even if ordered from Italy. Maybe that's short for can't be bothered to order such a small item Sad

Z-Pb, do you have the dimensions for the bushing?

I have found a source for sintered bronze bearings:
http://www.bowman.co.uk/products/oilite_plain

I would like to order one or more before I remove the engine and gearbox to replace the clutch. The person I spoke to at Bowman told me that this company will supply even one bushing only.

http://www.getyourbearings.co.uk/

Now all I need is the dimensions.
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy at Getyourbearings said they can only supply to measurements, not part numbers, so I thought I'd check with my local bearing supplier, http://www.cir.fr/

Gave them a ring this morning, and they can supply a large range of sintered bushes, so I'll call them again as soon as I get the tyhing out and measure it.
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 388
Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
I am currently away from home but I'll be back in one week time if you aren't in such a hurry i can get one measured for you just let me know

Regards,
ZP
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZeNiTh-PbArM wrote:
Hi
I am currently away from home but I'll be back in one week time if you aren't in such a hurry i can get one measured for you just let me know

Regards,
ZP


Many thanks, Z- P, but I just ordered two bushes from the company for which Bobkelso sent the link (Gieffecar S.r.l.).

Thank goodness for Google translate to back up my rather poor command of Italian!
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just received 2 bushes from Gieffecar, after a few hiccups, mainly due to my lack of Italian and confusion with Google translations.


Many thanks, Bobkelso.

Seems that Italian Alfa dealers can supply parts the others can't reach Very Happy
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, happy you find the spare!

Ps. I try to ask some questions, may be someone knows,

when if I'm changing clutch and may be also the gearbox,
and I verify mechanical plays at the small axe that go
throw clutch from gearbox to crankshaft, what I must
verify? how much are normal plays ?

- mechanical (lateral) play at bush in the crankshaft
(probably important not to have visible play to make
clutch bearing/pressure plate have a long life?)

- mechanical (lateral) play at bush in the gearbox side
(I don't know if this bush is important or if it
works only when gearbox is not engaged)

- axial (longitudinal) play of the axe himself
(I find it have always 3-4mm of axial play
in used but working gearbox, some users finded also more play,
I don't know if it is normal or if it is a signal of consumed/broken
splines in the joint with primary gearbox axe
(there are 2 splines I see in eper diagram) and
If I should rebuild/change the gearbox or
can I use it as a good one)

Question
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bobkelso"]Hi, happy you find the spare!

Ps. I try to ask some questions, may be someone knows,

when if I'm changing clutch and may be also the gearbox,
and I verify mechanical plays at the small axe that go
throw clutch from gearbox to crankshaft, what I must
verify? how much are normal plays ?

I make some comments below, but I have never stripped a 33 gearbox. Doubtless someone will be along with more experienced advice

- mechanical (lateral) play at bush in the crankshaft
(probably important not to have visible play to make
clutch bearing/pressure plate have a long life?)
You can really only measure the play in the crankshaft bush if you have a spare shaft to fit inside the bush. I don't think there should be any significant play, as this bush supports the weight of the clutch driven plate when it is disengaged, and this will be turning at engine speed.

- mechanical (lateral) play at bush in the gearbox side
(I don't know if this bush is important or if it
works only when gearbox is not engaged)
This bush is also important, as it supports the middle of the front primary shaft. If there is excessive play the oil seal may be damaged, or the shaft could touch the inside of sleeve on which the clutch release bearing slides.

- axial (longitudinal) play of the axe himself 3-4 mm seems a lot of play, as it would seem to indicate movement in the roll pins and holes in the splined joint holding the two primary shaft sections together.
(I find it have always 3-4mm of axial play
in used but working gearbox, some users finded also more play,
I don't know if it is normal or if it is a signal of consumed/broken
splines in the joint with primary gearbox axe
(there are 2 splines I see in eper diagram) and
If I should rebuild/change the gearbox or
can I use it as a good one)
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
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