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Scott Sander
Alfa 33
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 419
Location: Sydney, Australia
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 Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 11:13 pm Post subject: Racing a P4 or 16V |
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Hi,
Was wondering what you guys thought of would be a better car to race on a track. A P4 or a FWD 16V 
Would there be any advantage of the P4 over the 16V.
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Scott Sander
'91 Alfa 33 Boxer 16V Monza - Awesome
http://www.sanderfamily.com |
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Luciano
Alfa Arna
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Rain Happens!
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Alfa Romeo Trentatrč Q4 '94 |
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Admin
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 1223
Location: Stafford, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Nah, he lives in Sydney. Not much rain there. We get their rain and they get our sun 
Anyway the P4 would suffer badly due to the extra weight. It might make up for it on tight tracks or bumpy tracks where traction would be at a premium, or in the wet but overall I think a normal 16V would be faster in race trim, and alot cheaper
A P4 was raced in the UK AROC championship years ago. DOnt think it did that well
All the best
Keith |
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Scott Sander
Alfa 33
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 419
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Keith,
Thanks for the feedback.
The tracks would be Eastern Creek, Oran Park, Wakefield.
It was actually a wet day for the first round of the supersprint series at Eastern Creek.
Ok, so I won't make a P4 a priority for the race car.
Anyway what do you need sun for over there for, all it does is rain there.
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Scott Sander
'91 Alfa 33 Boxer 16V Monza - Awesome
http://www.sanderfamily.com |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Admin wrote: |
Anyway the P4 would suffer badly due to the extra weight. It might make up for it on tight tracks or bumpy tracks where traction would be at a premium, or in the wet but overall I think a normal 16V would be faster in race trim, and alot cheaper
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Just to play devil's advocate, what about weight distribution? Isn't it better with the P4? 
Also, could it be that P4s never made it as race cars due to their rarity and lack of development (esp. in the suspension department)? As for racing, within class weight limitations, I doubt the FWD 33 would be much lighter overall.
All that said, I'd prefer a 1.7 16V Alfasud!
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alexj
Alfasud
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 66
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Agree with the last comment...... if the rules allow it, a 16V alfasud is the way to go. Best power to weight ratio. The P4 would be good for ice racing. |
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Admin
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 1223
Location: Stafford, UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
The P4 transmission is not exactly high tech. It is quite a crude full time 4x4 system. Cannot remember off the top of my head how much more the P4 weighs than a 16V, but that extra weight is likely to be difficult if not impossible to reduce. The P4 has a heavier gearbox (added to which it would be difficult to change the diff ratios), plus a heavy prop shaft, viscous coupling, hefty rear diff, weighty rear axle and a rather large panhard rod.
All the best
Keith |
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amir
Alfa Arna
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 8
Location: Nuerburgring :))))
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:27 pm Post subject: P4 of course.... |
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...cause I have been racing against "normal" 16Vs on the Nuerburgring and on the roads round here (tight and crooked), they had no chance holding me exiting a corner, too much wheelspin causing loads of understeer.
I just floor the pedal and away I am.
Dont forget that any extra speed out of the corner will last for the following straight.
The P4 is a bit heavier, of course, but you have no wheelspin on the other hand.
grtz
amir |
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Lon
Alfasud
Joined: 28 Mar 2003
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: P4 of course.... |
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| amir wrote: |
...cause I have been racing against "normal" 16Vs on the Nuerburgring and on the roads round here (tight and crooked), they had no chance holding me exiting a corner, too much wheelspin causing loads of understeer.
I just floor the pedal and away I am.
Dont forget that any extra speed out of the corner will last for the following straight.
The P4 is a bit heavier, of course, but you have no wheelspin on the other hand.
grtz
amir |
if you mount a Torsen Diff. in a 16v the wheelspin when exiting a corner is reduced to the minimum or even to zero!.. In that case the 16v can be faster than the P4...
We can try it when I have the Torsen Diff mounted in my 16v.. ( as one of the two in Holland!!!!!!! ).. but that will take some time as production time of it is a month or 3... |
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alexj
Alfasud
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 66
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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When people talk about "normal" 16V wheelspin, I guess they mean the standard road cars. But the question is about racing. My alfasud has a rear anti-roll bar and NO front anti-roll bar, so even when the rear inside rear wheel lifts in tight corners, the front wheels are firmly on the ground and there is very little wheelspin. Fitting good racing or semi-race tyres help.
In my car there is no limited slip diff, but there are different ways that can be done too. I am told some people have adapted some Subaru LSD parts to the Alfa transmission/diff, but not sure about the exact details. |
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Gary UK
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 218
Location: Darlington UK
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2003 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with Keith on the weight but especially the transmission stakes, it would disintergrate rapidly. Maybe a one race wonder round Box Hill. |
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ricardo
Alfasud
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 43
Location: wellington .... new zealand
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:49 am Post subject: fwd i recon......till it rains..hard |
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i have driven both cars ..though mostly fwd..have raced my 16v for a season or so with suspention and brakes from the race sprinty
no wheel spin really .. the weight factor is a bigger advantage so would be the extra drive friction of the fwd........
untill it pisses down with rain !!!!!
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Serpent33
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 210
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:15 am Post subject: |
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The FWD give me high confidence in cornering that no other cars gave, incl 4wds. Of course it'll be a different matter on wet. Too much power would be lost through the tranny for P4.
I'd swear by the FF for track driving. Although I accidentally clicked on P4.
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Each time I speed I say, "Dear lord, make me fast and accurate..." |
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tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Racing a P4 or 16V |
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| Scott Sander wrote: |
Hi,
Was wondering what you guys thought of would be a better car to race on a track. A P4 or a FWD 16V
Would there be any advantage of the P4 over the 16V. |
As P4 owner who drove his P4 on track during Alfa track days here in Croatia on Grobnik, I can say that 16v is better choice.
70kg is still 70kg more then FWD, and not only that but also transmision resistance is greater then on 16v so you lose more torque/power till it reaches ground.
And we all know that usualy track surface is much more rough then usualy road, so wheel spin is not that likely to occur as on road.
I drove my P4 some 10 laps, ili both P2/fwd and P4 mode (with P4 it is some 20km/h more then P2 on same trajectory throught corner before it loses traction, but you and I know that 4x4 trajectory will be different, and sliding a bit more/earlier with fwd doesn't necessary mean losing time), and somewhere at middle there was a little bit of rain. I was on my 30k km made Dunlop SP2000 with 3mm groove left which I replaced because even with 4x4 and dry they would spin like crazy.
So 4x4 system in any 33 is good for road, but on track it just weight you don't need untill track is flooded.
Tino
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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