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knight
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 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:44 am Post subject: 1.5 &1.7 8v spark plug type |
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Regarding my post about the mis-fire on my 1.5 sud-sprint motor......last nite I cleaned and inspected att the Jets - all OK.....the new ignition leads are OK, but the exhaust temperature of cyl number 3 is still only anout 50DegC, whereas the others are about 110DegC at idle.......I checked how far out the idle adjustment jets were wound out.......1,2 and 4 were all between 2.25 and 2.75 turns.......cyl number 3 was 3.25 turns.......so I wound cyl 3 back in 0.5 of a turn, waited 5 minutes.......and nothing!....still 50DegC.....so I removed the 0.5 turn, and left it as found
I removed the spark plugs, and I have to say I think those 4-electrode Golden lodge plugs are load of old tosh......number 3 cyl was most definatley wet, whereas the others were nice and brows/sooty, as to be expected from an idle plug reading
I have consulted the haynes manual and it says an alternative plug is the Champion N6YC with a 0.6mm gap......of which I'm going to order a set........has anyone got any experience with the 1.5/1.7 8v spark plugs???......as I'm suspecting I have a duff plug on cyl 3, which may be causing the missfire when warm......your thoughts appreciated  |
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Kiwi Sprint
Alfa Arna
Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Canterbury, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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I recently put the NGK equalivent of those champions in my 1.5 with no issues to speak off.
_________________
1984 Sprint Green Cloverleaf 1.5
Previous alfas
94 155 V6
87 33 Ti |
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Deano
Alfasud
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:37 am Post subject: Spark plugs |
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You're right... the Golden Lodge plugs are a 20 year old design and totally rubbish by modern standards. In my experience they only have to soot-up a small amount before they refuse to spark. So if you are running slightly rich then it wont be long before you get mis-fire problems.
I have been using Bosch Super 4, which are a similar 4-electrode design and readily available from Halfords. The performance is definately superior to the Golden Lodge plugs. |
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knight
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:54 am Post subject: plugs |
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| good info guys, have ordered a set of NGK plugs (equivalent to the champions) from my local spares shop......will be installed friday......as I suspected the Golden Lodge plugs sound very temprimental when running rich and sooted-up....... |
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Spark plugs |
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| Deano wrote: |
You're right... the Golden Lodge plugs are a 20 year old design and totally rubbish by modern standards. In my experience they only have to soot-up a small amount before they refuse to spark. So if you are running slightly rich then it wont be long before you get mis-fire problems.
I have been using Bosch Super 4, which are a similar 4-electrode design and readily available from Halfords. The performance is definately superior to the Golden Lodge plugs. |
I find this very odd. From my experience, I would say the exact opposite! The Golden Lodge 25HL plugs are regarded by many as the best plugs for the boxer engined 33's, and are quite a clever design. I have tried a set of brand new Bosch plugs, coinicidentally from Halfords too, and they were cr*p. I was quite surprised how smoothly the engine ran when I put back in the old Golden Lodge Plugs, compared to the rough experience with the Bosch ones.
Maybe the Golden Lodge plugs are very sensitive to the fuel air mixture / carburettor cars? The Golden Lodge plugs were not at all fouled up when I took them out, no carbon build up or anything. Been running with them for a while now, and they still perform outstandingly. Maybe, if you are experiencing spark problems due to carbon build up, you should change the mixture to get a more complete combustion?
BTW - when we first got the 33, my specialist switched around the spark plug leads / firing order - it is apparently a trick to get the engines working better. I have a piece of paper what was swapped - will post when I find it. Anybody else heard of this? |
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
What do you mean by switching the spark plug leads / firing order?
If the firing order changes then engine runs purely or not at all...
Quite an intersting point though...
Regards
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| gritsop wrote: |
Hi,
What do you mean by switching the spark plug leads / firing order?
If the firing order changes then engine runs purely or not at all...
Quite an intersting point though...
Regards |
I was also surprised that he did it - I will check the new firing order / diagram we drew so that I can explain what was changed later today. Maybe he completely reversed the firing order? Original order is 1 - 3 - 2 - 4 I think - maybe he made it 4 - 2 - 3 - 1? Would this work with the fuel injection? 
The engine does run very well, far better than the old 145 we bought new which had the same engine (just the different inlet manifold).
Also, he mentioned at the same time that the 1.3 / 1.4 IE engines received modifications to the ECU system as a service bulletin, and that this can be seen if the ECU box has a white marking on it. |
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tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Paddy,
my P4 never liked GL 25 HLD, I was running to rich and too cold for their taste.
I would change them every 7-10k km, there was a tone of deposits.
And then I installed LPG, and suddenly almost all problems with GL went away they lasted up to 20k km, almost none deposits no foulng, except one had cracked insulating layer.
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
Paddy I suppose you have the Marelli IAW system do you?
If so then your mechanic should have done something with the two coils under the manifold. This fact sounds more possible since there is no distributor.
However I'm still confused since the firing order is something which is crucial for the functioning of the engine
Anyway, keep us informed with the diagram.
Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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knight
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: plugs |
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Paddy - from the posts above, I'm suspecting your car is injected.....dont forget that my problem is linked with a 1.5-sud engine ON CARBS......my fuelling was last week re-set at 3.0 on the CO reading (was 4.5 -4.8!) so its OK.......I will let you know how the NGK plugs go  |
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: plugs |
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| knight wrote: |
| Paddy - from the posts above, I'm suspecting your car is injected.....dont forget that my problem is linked with a 1.5-sud engine ON CARBS......my fuelling was last week re-set at 3.0 on the CO reading (was 4.5 -4.8!) so its OK.......I will let you know how the NGK plugs go |
Yep - my 33 has IAW / Marelli fuel injection. Same as you Gritsop? |
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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No, mine is Bosch Jetronic - and i 'm sure if i changed the firing order from the distributor leads then something bad will happen... 
Regards
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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Deano
Alfasud
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Spark plugs |
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| Quote: |
I find this very odd. From my experience, I would say the exact opposite! The Golden Lodge 25HL plugs are regarded by many as the best plugs for the boxer engined 33's, and are quite a clever design. I have tried a set of brand new Bosch plugs, coinicidentally from Halfords too, and they were cr*p. I was quite surprised how smoothly the engine ran when I put back in the old Golden Lodge Plugs, compared to the rough experience with the Bosch ones.
Maybe the Golden Lodge plugs are very sensitive to the fuel air mixture / carburettor cars? The Golden Lodge plugs were not at all fouled up when I took them out, no carbon build up or anything. Been running with them for a while now, and they still perform outstandingly. Maybe, if you are experiencing spark problems due to carbon build up, you should change the mixture to get a more complete combustion?
BTW - when we first got the 33, my specialist switched around the spark plug leads / firing order - it is apparently a trick to get the engines working better. I have a piece of paper what was swapped - will post when I find it. Anybody else heard of this? |
You need to try the "Bosch Super 4" plugs, which are multi-electrode plug in the same vain as the Golden Lodge. You should find they are far superior to the standard single electrode Bosch plug. |
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, you are probably correct there, but don't ever buy the Bosch Super W5DC single electrode plugs - these are terrible.
I can't find the diagram I mentioned- I will have to ask my mechanic next time I see him. It was something to do with the spark plug ignition sequence though - that much I do remember. |
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paulhide
P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 1607
Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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I wish someone could categorically sort out which plugs are the best with some facts and figures. I've run both and can't be sure. However once upon a time I changed an engine on one of my cars and put in brand new Golden Lodges. The engine only fired on three cylinders and I wondered what was wrong. Eventually turned out one of the plugs I'd been sold was dud! Anyway the last advice I was given was that the engine was designed for Golden Lodges and therefore that is what you should use. 
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Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188 |
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
It was a period that my car was running poor especially when it was cold and until it reached 60 C approximatelly. When in normal temp it was OK up to 80 %
Started looking for injector issues, leads etc. but in vain.
Lucky me it was only a couple of thousands Kms that had to replace the spark plugs. When I installed the new ones (25HL) the problem disappeared...
It was a faulty plug that wanted to heat up in order to work somehow fine.
The funny part was that it was not faulty from the beggining but towards the end of its operational life...
Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe we should start a poll?! |
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knight
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: plugs |
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| Gritstop......your problem sounds exactly like mine!......I think I too have a dud GL25 plug on cyl-3......I will be installing the NGK's this afternoon........shall let you know how it goes |
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knight
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: plugs |
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| I fixed my missfire .......but it was not the plugs which were the cause ........it was the fu*&ing air filter!!!!!!......I changed the GL plugs for some NGK's , and the exhaust temp on cyl 3 was still only about 40-50DegC.......as soon as I popped the cover off the air box all exhaust temps at idle were between 100 and 120 DegC......so I jumped in the car, blipped the throttle and it was revving like never before.......sweet as a nut......I have left the NGK's in as I still believe the GL's are crap, but thats just my personal preference!......am now sourcing a proper K&N cotton-gauze filter which will not cause so much of a pressure drop......JR also do a cotton-gauze filter......depends which is cheapest.......the air-filter in question was a yellow paper type, with a green rubber foam frame, made by a company called Crossland.......you have been warned!!!!!......a new paper one will probably be OK, but I think it will soon block up and the problem may return......hence, I'm going the cotton-gauze route |
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paulhide
P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 1607
Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting about the filter. Will have a look on mine. Weird how it only affected one cylinder. So far in the poll all votes are for the Golden Lodges!
_________________
Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188 |
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tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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From what I have heared, and seen few weeks ago during rebuild of my 16v, for some reason cyl 3 is one that gives most of headaches on all AR boxers.
If there was one cyl that would wet spark first it was that one, deposit build up, plug fouling...in case of owerheat, rings woild stuck... it is cyl no.3.
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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