Alfa Pages

Carl · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:15 am Post subject: P4 viscous coupling pics please

Hi,
I was hoping one of the P4 owners on here with a digital camera could possibly post a couple of snaps of the EM clutch and viscous coupling and their relationship to the rear driveshaft.
I'd especially like to see how they attach to the chassis, gearbox and driveshaft.
Also if anyone knows of a wrecker in Australia that might have the above, please post.

thanks,
-Carl
_________________
'86 33 4x4 Monte Carlo Sportswagon

tinworm · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:54 am Post subject:

I too would appreciate some photographs being posted as this is something I'm looking into doing myself. 4X4 running gear, while not plentiful, is available in Australia. P4 is not, or at least not in any place I've looked yet!
I'm not sure if another car has a similar setup to that of the P4 but the Subaru full-time arrangment is built into the gearbox, not very helpful at all.
If someone has a scanned pic. or photo's to post please do so as I can't seem to find even a blurry print or photographic referance at all.

Thank you.

Cheers,... Col.
_________________
1977 Alfasud ti 1.7
1985 Alfa 33 4x4 1.7
1968 1750 GTV
1986 Alfa Sprint 1.5 QV

bobbber · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:43 am Post subject:

Hey guys, do these help :

_________________
Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

tinworm · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:

Thank you, Thank you and Thank you! What a champion effort. Now I have something to go on. I can also see why the viscous coupling mount gets broken too Wink

Cheers,.... Col.
_________________
1977 Alfasud ti 1.7
1985 Alfa 33 4x4 1.7
1968 1750 GTV
1986 Alfa Sprint 1.5 QV

bobbber · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject:

Not a problem.

I could send you a copy of the DVD these images came off of if you like (pm me).

This is from the Alfa parts DVD.

Anyway - glad that helped.

Bob
_________________
Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

Vecchio Alfisti · Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:06 am Post subject:

For Carl

You might try Marc at Milano Spares www.milano.com.au in Thomastown. Last time I was there he had lots of 33 bits. and he has contacts all over Australia.

Usual disclaimer
John
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Alfa 33 1.7 QF I think maybe now I m not so sure

tinworm · Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:29 am Post subject:

Carl, it sounds like you are looking to do the same as I have planned for the future, that is to make your wagon into a full time (or real) four wheel drive, eh?
I have acquired a 1986 Alfa 33 4x4 with good mechanicals, a heap of spares and dodgy bodywork to play with, sadly however, no viscous coupling:(
Speaking of Marc, I have bought a few spare parts such as taillights etc. for my 1750 GTV from Marc at Milano Spares, a little pricey, but he does have some goodies though.
If it looks like I'm stepping on your toes then I apologise, it just got me excited to see some diagrams of what I've been looking around on the 'net for seemingly ages for;)

Cheers,.... Col.
_________________
1977 Alfasud ti 1.7
1985 Alfa 33 4x4 1.7
1968 1750 GTV
1986 Alfa Sprint 1.5 QV

Carl · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:26 am Post subject:

Bobber: Thanks a lot, I now have a much better idea what I'm dealing with

John: Yeah, I've bought a lot of stuff off him in the past, usually good, though not always, but what do you expect from used parts...

Tinworm: Exactly Very Happy

, no problem, I'd be glad of the company as it were, I'm thinking I might have to get the parts from the UK, so I might be looking for someone to share some shipping costs. Mechanically it looks very doable, I've just got to work out the financial aspects.
_________________
'86 33 4x4 Monte Carlo Sportswagon

stedee73 · Guest

i have got a viscous coupling alas i live in the uk though, you are brave trying to convert a 2wd to a 4wd, there is alot of stuff to change,eg exhaust,petrol tank,electromagnetic coupling, abs, the ecu plus all the usual 4wd stuff
steve

tinworm · Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject:

Thank you for that offer of a coupling. If it were a couple of months or more ago I'd be jumping for joy, but alas (or you beauty actually) I've found a P4 coupling on eBay (UK) for reasonable money Very Happy

, the only trouble was that the seller could only manage to find transport for about 70 or so quid Rolling Eyes

The price that was first quoted was about 140 Pounds or so, (about $AU300) Shocked

So, Carl, if you want to take this offer and can arrange an inexpensive freight (fright?) arrangement then go for it, I've not been able to find a P4 anywhere in Australia being wrecked nor a viscous coupling.

Am I brave converting? I would guess so, but not that difficult really compared to some conversions you see done. I'm not putting in all the ABS nor switching, just the coupling and shorter prop-shaft's, petrol tank, different rear exhaust etc.
My little Alfasud is nearly ready for final inspection and registration after a years worth of welding/ replacing and painting. Got some 40mm. Dellorto's to replace the Bosch Jetronic stuff on a 1.7ie motor so that will be the next job to do, should be good to drive with a fairly healthy response. Hey, I thought that the 1.2 motor was a pretty lively little bugger the last time I drove the car, it won't be any worse now Very Happy

Cheers all,... Col.
_________________
1977 Alfasud ti 1.7
1985 Alfa 33 4x4 1.7
1968 1750 GTV
1986 Alfa Sprint 1.5 QV

Edward · Alfa 33 Joined: 21 Sep 2003 Posts: 307 Location: Bristol

Hi guys,

What would happen if you did away with the viscous coupling in the middle all together. Would this just pass a pre-determined amount of power to the rear and in effect do away with and sensing and power transfer from front to rear as we know the system is capable of.

If a straight balanced tube replaced the coupling would that work??

Edward.
_________________
The faster the better.

tvatavuk · Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject:

Yes you can do that.
You would get normal 33 ie version with 4x4 but without 4x4 switch to turn it off. That will lead to much more stress on all 4x4 components.
IMHO you should be able to transfer whole 4x4 propshaft system from 33 4x4 to 33 P4.
So there is no need to build anything to replace visco coupling, but I newer did that so can't guarantee it 100%.

Regards,
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo

tinworm · Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject:

As tvatavuk has already said, yes, I'm sure you could put in a straight propshaft to replace the viscous coupling except you would get massive wind up on firm ground, so much so that on dry concrete it could/ would break something.
When I left (unintentionally) my 33-4x4 wagon in four wheel drive after driving around on wet, muddy ground it pushed straight ahead and wouldn't turn at all at a shop down the road where it was on a sealed surface. After several attempts to turn and nearly hitting a parked car I discovered it was still in 4x4, with that out of gear on the little lever it turned easily. Well, as easily as a non-power steered 33 will on dry concrete!
Technically possible on a wet or slippery surface but not practically possible in real life due to mechanical loading. My car came with a spare 4x4 gearbox that has a broken reverse gear and the gearbox in my wagon has a very dodgy shift from first to second, ie., you have to push over VERY hard to the left (right hand drive) to engage the gears and not get third- fourth instead! I'm not sure if it's all attributable to the windup or not, but it wouldn't have helped either Embarassed

This is the reason for my transferring a 1.7 ie motor and the 4x4 running gear (with P4 viscous coupling) into my Alfasud, to get a good drive system in all weather conditions and to be able to still turn properly on sealed roads without breaking something Wink

Cheers,... Col.
_________________
1977 Alfasud ti 1.7
1985 Alfa 33 4x4 1.7
1968 1750 GTV
1986 Alfa Sprint 1.5 QV

paulhide · Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject:

If you're having problems mixing up gears tinworm try sorting out the rubber bushes on the bottom of the gearstick and on the linkage. I used to get 4th all the time instead of 2nd and thought I had a dodgy gearbox. I changed the bushes and suddenly had an excellent gearbox! Of course it may be your gearbox after all, but it's worth a try just in case. A friend had a car once where it was difficult to engage 1st and 2nd and 5th and reverse. We changed the gearstick to one with better rubber and all the gears were easy to find. Sorry if you already know that this isn't true for your car.
_________________
Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188

bobbber · Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject:

Paul,

Most gearboxes are like this :

1 3 5
¦--¦--¦
2 4 R

But mine is like THIS :

1 3 5
-¦-¦-¦
2¦ 4 R
_________________
Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

paulhide · Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject:

Well that's just characterful isn't it. Maybe let me check it out at NAD?
My P4 gearbox originally was

1 3 5
2-|-| !!!! Confused

4 R
_________________
Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188

bobbber · Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:19 am Post subject:

Paul,

That's INSANE!!!!! Laughing

Basically on my box - if you pull away in 1st and then pull it back to go into 2nd, without notching it over, you'll end up with a crunch and in 4th.

Although my 2nd gear doesn't appear to crunch at all!

Bob
_________________
Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

bobbber · Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:24 am Post subject:

Although having said that, once used to it - it's not a problem. I'm guessing the box is actually ok (as no crunches and stuff) - perhaps the bushes are to blame.

I've changed the outer linkage under the stick - as the old one fell off leaving me stranded in the middle of nowhere! But this hasn't changed it at all.

Bob
_________________
Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

paulhide · Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject:

No it's the other bush/linkage behind the gearbox that fixes this problem, which with my diagram I was trying to explain just as you have said - often getting 4th where you thought 2nd was. I still have to notch over a bit, but nowhere near as much as before and it seems like a gem of a gearbox now. (sorry to hijack your original thread, Ed)
_________________
Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188

Edward · Alfa 33 Joined: 21 Sep 2003 Posts: 307 Location: Bristol

Paul,

It wasn't really my thread - it was someone elses to start with - but I guess that is life.

Do you know what is meant by the 'wind up' that was mentioned earlier in the thread by Tvavativ ( spelling???). I have this vision of some sort of intertia that builds in the system - but I clearly don't understand. Any ideas??

Edward.
_________________
The faster the better.

Edward · Alfa 33 Joined: 21 Sep 2003 Posts: 307 Location: Bristol

....actually it was Tinworm (col), but the question was still a good one - I think!

Edward.
_________________
The faster the better.

paulhide · Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:06 am Post subject:

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I I'm fairly sure the original series two 4X4s didn't have a viscous coupling and you were asking for trouble driving with it engaged on dry roads unless you were just driving in a straight line. On a wet road the tyres can slip when one corner is moving faster than another and of course when you are steering the inside wheel is moving less distance than the outside and this is also true to a lesser extent with the rear wheels in relation to each other. It is also true for the rear wheels in relation to the front wheels. When you are steering the front wheels are moving at different speeds to the back wheels and if the differential system is trying to propel them at the same speed you can get wind up which will either judder/spin the wheels or wear/damage the drive in some way. However I think we're getting a little confused here because what you actually need in these situations is a limited slip differential and I'm not totally sure that our viscous coupling is totally effective here because although it allows for some differences, it actually tightens up when there are those differences of speed Exclamation

_________________
Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188

tvatavuk · Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:41 am Post subject:

Nothing wrong there, all pure facts.
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo

tinworm · Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject:

There are now more questions to answer Very Happy

Firstly, now I know what the problem is after looking at the gearbox with the rubber gaiter removed. The circlip is missing from the little lever sticking up from the 'box that changes the gears, most seem to fall/ break off and consequently strand Alfasud/ Sprint/ 33 owners in the middle of nowhere, mine is missing but surprisingly still connected after being driven umpteen miles... figure that one out.
Secondly, the gear change lever rubber (big, lower one) is in pristine condition, no gooey crap rubber conversion due to oil impregnation as was initially suspected, just the little bushes in the middle of the gearlever that are flogged out. Literally! No bushes left due to wear and tear, or maybe they were removed for whatever reason Rolling Eyes

My spare 4x4 gearbox doesn't have that part left to look at and every other gearstick has them missing, gee, can't imagine why that would be. What are they made out of? Are they a nylon sort of stuff or maybe synthetic rubber? Surely not real rubber?
Whatever, I can get a mate to spin some up out of brass or nylon material to at least work better than the one's that aren't there.

As for the gearbox and differentials loading up, now this thread has me thinking it may be wise to leave the 4x4 engagement lever in place to safeguard against any eventuality such as breakages etc.
When I left it unintentionaly the wagon in four wheel drive on a sealed surface I should have suspected something as it didn't spin after taking off very rapidly(fairly keen to get to the shop at lunchtime), normal practice is to torque steer noticeably, just to slip a bit, or both. Definately works, a Permanent 4 would be pretty good with a supercharged 16v 1.7.
Anyway, now I know what I'm doing this weekend Very Happy

Col.
_________________
1977 Alfasud ti 1.7
1985 Alfa 33 4x4 1.7
1968 1750 GTV
1986 Alfa Sprint 1.5 QV