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tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

Hello! As per my other post I'm looking at buying a P4, but it will need new brakes so I would like to get some advice from here before I part with my hard-earned!

Back in the day I had a 33 16V which was my first fast car: I loved it but the standard brakes scared the hell out of me when they faded out, which was all the time.
I had a word with my local specialist who prescribed some drilled and grooved front discs to help disipate the heat (Black Diamond combi's), and some better pads (Mintex 1144). The back end retained the standard drums. I didn't even touch the lines or the fluid and this sorted the fade problem right out, even if the brakes still weren't all that confidence inspiring from a feel perspective.

Fast forward to more recent times and I purchased a 75 3.0 V6, which had a similar problem with the somewhat undersized brakes being very prone to fading. However, when I spoke to a well known transaxle racer he recommended NOT to purchase anything but plain discs as anything grooved and/or slotted further reduces the already insufficient swept area. So on his recommendation I went for very good fluid (AP Racing Dot5.1), very good pads (Ferodo DS2500) and braided lines - the braking was superb (For a 75!)

So, hopefully finding myself back in the 33 camp I'm in a bit of a conundrum, and (finally) my 2 questions:
- Has anyone managed to get a fade-free setup on their 33 with plain discs? If so, what pads did you use?

- If I do have to go down the drilled route (Not sure grooved offers any real benefits?), should I opt for rear drilled discs too, or is this a waste of money as they don't get hot?

Any experienced guidance would be welcome!

tvatavuk · Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:13 am Post subject:

P4 has same problems as your 33 16v + maybe a bit worse due to extra 90kg of 4x4 system.

As I can see you tried both setups
1. colder setup
2- hotter setup
On hotter setup- hotter pads get more friction you've got up to some 600-700C?, with that high temps you need better brake oil with higher boiling point aka dot 5.1, and steel reinforced brake hoses because rubber ones at higher temps tend to swell like zeppelin.

It is true holes and groves will reduce disc area. Groves on disk help to minimize dust build up in holes and remove glazing from pads. If you're unlucky if you pick hot enough pads for drilled disc you might end up with cracked holed on discs dute to high temp localized in filled hole.

- Not everyone has same problems with fade due to differences in driving styles.
- Rear drilled is waste of money, only pads will do just nicely.

AFAIK DS2500 heed some heating (2-3 short brakings) to start breaking properly, was same situation with mintex 1144?

Have you considered fitting larger 256/284mm disc and calipers from another car?
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo

icky · Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:59 am Post subject:

Just a recommendation,
Replace the brake fluid completely throughout before going for drilled etc,
You may be amazed at the difference this makes and at the colour of the old brake fluid.

Also check the rubber link hoses to the calipers, my front ones had swelled and deteriorated so much that nothing got through them, but they looked okay from the outside.

Cheers
_________________
Specialization is For Insects

1988 33 1.5 S 8V

tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

Thanks for the advice fellas, much appeciated Cool

Decent fluid is a given, I'd love to fit braided brake lines but I can't find a supplier for them in the UK for the P4 Sad

Particularly thanks for the guidance ref the use of standard rear discs - I'll perhaps use the cost saving on these to go drilled AND grooved on the front, and colder pads?
The pads are a problem for me: Tino you are right: the DS2500's did need to be warmed up first, I remember the 1144's being worse actually!
The problem I have is that my girlfriend will be using the car too, and she does not drive aggresively so fitting hotter pads could be a problem Rolling Eyes

So I guess the best way forward could be to combat the heat with the use of drilled discs allowing the use of colder pads so they will work in the morning? Or is this flawed logic on my behalf?

I've no experience, but I suspect the best all round pad would be the original AR 16v ones, but I can't find these either Confused

Tino, the car is a bit of a survivor; it's only done 55k miles, has a full service history and effectively one owner from new so I'm keen to keep it standard-ish, otherwise I'd agree that enlarging the system would be the way to go.

If anyone has a source for P4 braided hoses, or original pads please let me know!

tvatavuk · Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject:

AR 16v oem pads were Ferodo Formula 1, but they lasted only around 8-12k km. Ferodo Formula 1 was strange combination: hot friction like DS2250 would be, cold friction and disc wear like Premier ones but with pad wear bigger then any of those.
Since then Ferodo changed their friction material and new pads got new names
- Ferodo Premier/Premium,
- Ferodo DS Performance/Formula (ex Ferodo DS2000) fr 0,42-0,44
- Ferodo 2500 fr 0,46-0,5
If you can educate here to drive with colder pads DS2000 could be ok, if not Premier one are way to go.

I used OMP drilled/grooved + OMP Road& Sport (fast road pads all over) but those pads also need to be warmed up first and lasted around 14k km. I never managed to fade properly that combination but I managed to fade my 3months old performance tires Toyo T1S with it !!!
Also used same discs with ATE oem pads, managed to fade them on track day, no need for warming, last longer but eaten that OMP disc 2-3x faster then OMP R&S. 1 OMP pads + 1 ATE= OMP disc that needs replacement after only 26k km.

I'm also in process of looking/buying new pads/discs but for 284mm discs on my P4 which rules out most of pads that need more then 1-2 brakings to warm up.
From what I've heard and looking at promo material over web M1144 work better when cold then Ferodo DS2500, roles are reversed with high temps.
So now I'm looking for maker of drilled/grooved disc which also have pads which are kind to those discs but on cold have friction at least close to oem ones Smile

I hoped M1144 would be answer to it, but now I don't know if they are realy worse then ds2500.
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo

tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

Thanks Tino, that's all great advice.
I wouldn't rely on my comments about M1144 vs DS2500: my experience is spread across two different cars so is hardly a like for like comparison, and therefore shouldn't be trusted.

I suspect I'll actually end up educating the girlfriend a bit and buying M1144's again as I'm pretty sure I can source them for the P4;
I have doubts that I'll be able to get DS2000's for this car in the UK.
If you've got the Ferodo part numbers please let me know!

On the other hand, she is doing mainly short distances so maybe I should just get the Premier's and rely on the extra cooling from the drilled discs for when I drive the car. Mmm tricky decision!! Confused

Ben_nz · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:02 am Post subject:

I've used standard pads on a low speed racetrack, and Hawk HP Plus pads on a faster/larger circuit. I've never experienced brake fade on my 33!
This is with standard brake discs too.
Maybe I don't brake aggressively enough, or maybe my car is slow!

The Hawk pads were recommended to me by a guy who races in my local AROC's Trofeo race series. He gave me a used pair and they were fine on road and track, aside from clanking around in the calipers cos the springs were broken off.

I've just received a new set of the Hawk pads (part HB195N.640 works with the ATe calipers) and I'm having them installed on Monday. Disc skim and new brake fluid and I expect no problems! I'll be running them permanently this time (everyday use), but in my relatively brief previous experience I didn't find any problems from cold.

tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

Don't see why series 2 cars should be any different to series 3, but I used to sail through red lights whilst standing on the brake pedal with the standard setup: I suppose it's more than possible that the previous owner put really cheap pads in there. It was terrifying.

tvatavuk · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject:

Series 2 FWD 33 is around 150kg lighter then s3 P4 Sad

Previous owner of my P4 also putted crap of pads into it, the would fade after first braking from 80km/h-0 wnd would recover next day Smile

When I faded my ATE pads with drilled discs on track day it was in first lap when I overbraked every corner on track, once I stoped braking where I didn't need to no more problems with fade, also 3, 4th gear were only two I neded on that track Smile

Premier pads + drilled discs sounds reasonable if disc is hard enough.

Sorry I don't have exact part numbers for Ferodo, it is just unbeliveable how they hide numbers. Best I could do is to dig those few sites,

Federal Mogul on line catalogue
http://www.fmecat.eu/

Ferodo Racing
http://www.ferodoracing.it/auto02.asp?serie=247
http://www.equipetorino.it/

http://www.lkperformancestyling.co.uk/product.php?ctn=blackdiamondbrakepads&product=PP%20188
Whatever you find in there try to find paper catalogue with printed pad shape in original size and compare with brake pad you have.
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo

tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

Thanks for the links Tino - really appreciate the help: I'll have a look at them and see if I can get some idea of the part numbers.
I've decided to go for Premier Pads after some thought: I rather take the risk of some fade than have my girlfriend struggling to stop the car in the morning!

My first 16v was 2wd so a bit nearer the S2 weight, and I suspect the pads on the car when I bought it secondhand (30,000 miles) were of the cheap and nasty variety!

If I buy the car (The garage STILL haven't inspected it Rolling Eyes

) I'll post back how the setup works.
Wink

Scott Sander · Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject:

I have some slotted rotors on my 16V with DS2500 pads. A definite improvement over the standard rotors and pads. Only downside is they do need to warm up, but that doesn't take long.
_________________
Scott Sander
'91 Alfa 33 Boxer 16V Monza - Awesome
http://www.sanderfamily.com

tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

Scott, don't happen to have the Ferodo part numbers do you? Razz

Scott Sander · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:09 am Post subject:

Happen to have Very Happy

The part number on the box is FCP546H.
_________________
Scott Sander
'91 Alfa 33 Boxer 16V Monza - Awesome
http://www.sanderfamily.com

tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

Top man!

tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

I've bought the car but it's at a specialist having a new clutch, exhaust and that rear visous coupling done: due out on the 27th March. This has given me a bit of time to source the other parts that I'll need and I've managed to find some OEM 16v Alfa Pads so thats good news I think!
He hasn't got any rears so I'll try to pick up some Ferodo Premiers for the back.

He's also trying to shift some old stock Pagid 16 groove discs for a very good price; do you think this is a good idea or is it likely to accelerate the wear on already quick wearing pads?? Confused

tvatavuk · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject:

I should shorten if but by which percent it is hard for me to say.
Grooves clean oxidated pad surface very fast, haven't noticed that they are so hard on clean pad, but that was on 4 grooves plus cca 4 another hole columns OMP disc, nowdays OMP makes 4 (1/2 lenght) grooves plus 4 hole columns so I guess that is to preserve pad lifespan.
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo

tempra2 · Alfasud Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 46

Thanks Tino; I'm not at all convinced by the pagid discs but the price is making me consider them! I'm thinking drilled only discs by Black Diamond who I've used before. Tricky!