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[Yvon]

Hello guys,

2 weeks ago a bought a 33 16V and try to find a knoking noise from right side of the engine.
This week-end I replace injectors but no change. Cambelt done and OK, change oil and put a 15/40 semi.

1. Could it be the came followers ?

2. Also looking for another problem, car is rateling above 3000rpm. Change fuel filter but no change. Any idea how to check what is wrong. ECU diag is OK (4-4-4-4). Thanks Keith for the T2 trick.

3. If I had to work on the heads, can this job be done without removing the engine. When I see how difficult it is just to change the plugs !!

A would like to have this car running because this model have a sunroof hopefully... car color is metal black !!), ABS and is equiped with Recaro seats and trims (otherwise I would not buy that car !!) and best of all rustfree.

Any tips and tricks are welcome and I thank you in advance for that.
Yvon Duvivier (Belgium)

PS : yes Keith .... I had a 155 V6 some times ago (garaged for now)

[amir]

Hi,

could be a worn crank or rod bearing.

They can be changed with the engine in the car. Bearing sets are rather cheap.

Another idea is to check oil pressure. Maybe it drops on higher revs.

Good luck

amir

[micap]

Have you checked the water pump? It might very well be the cause of the knocking. I have just changed the water pump myself, and it also made a knocking or rattle.
_________________
/Michael

ex 89 1.7 QV
now 85 1.5 QV with 1.7 engine.

[Yvon]

Many thanks for your suggestions. I'll have a look on that too. When I try to locate the noise, I use in long screw driver all around the area but could not identify knokking. Cameshaft are doing more noise on right side than left and injectors too (not anymore sinds I change it this week-end).

The other problem of rattling is more difficult to identify. Car is running good until 2500 rpm. After if I continue, the effect is exactely the same if I had no fuel but if I put the pedal on floor, car is accelerating without any problem except this is not the *power* I expected and missfire when going back to normal.

I am almost in the process of swaping the engine (I've got another one) and then proceed to a complete revision.

Amir,
How can I check oil pression ? If it is not to much, may I have the procedure to calibrate the AFM you mention in another post.

Thanks in advance,
Yvon

[Admin]

Hi

Glad to see you around

Could the noise be a sticking hydraulic tappet? Might be worth flushing the engine through and doing another oil change.

I had a problem with the P4 ages ago where on a long run it would loose power and misfire. The only way to cure it was to either use the thottle violently, or to dip the clutch and rev the engine hard. Both worked for a few minutes. Finally fixed the problem by taking the top ofF the AFM and putting a tiny drop of WD40 on the electrical contact inside (a friend had a similar problem but used electrical contact cleaner). Does sound a bit similar to the problem you have, but far worse for you

All the best

Keith

[Guest]

First, thanks for all your advise. This week-end I swap the two engine on my 33 16V.

Status now : camfollower noise is OK ... no more clicking. However, engine doesn't have any power and is back firing.

I proceed to the cameshaft belt replacement and respect all pointers and rechecked several time. However I'm still convinced they are not correct.

Q1 : when you place the belt with 2 pointers on upper pulley and the pointer on lower pulley in between upper pointers, lower pulley(exhaust) seems to start compress but doesn't look to be at 12 o'clock. So I force it to be on 12 o'clock. Am I wrong. Upper pulley, go wrong as soon I release the belt. So I also place it at 6 o'clok by adjusting the pulley (this looks correct to me)

Q2 : when I proceed to the test with small triangle, is there any way to know for sure belt are correctly placed. It looks to me, you can easly be wrong by one tooth. When one side has the triangle correct, the other side is in the opposite side. Is this correct ?

Q3 : I would like to check if sparkplug are working but see a lot of time ... do not disconnect the plug. So how to check ?

Q4 : May I disconnect injectors leaving it on the rail. Cranking a few time and see a spray? How this should happens : all 4 together ?

Q5 : May I disconnect the injectors one at a time when engine is running and check for variations ?

Sorry for all those questions that maybe already appear in this forum but I'm quit lost after working 16 hours to swap engine and another 16 hours to fix this b..... problem that eat my brain.

Thanks for any response,
Yvon Duvivier

[Yvon]

Sorry ... previous post is not from a "guest". I loose my session

Q5 : I mean electrically disconnected.

Yvon

[Admin]

Hi

I take it the plugs are all OK?

You could try disconnecting each injector in turn. However I am not certain that this is safe for the ecu (probably OK, but not certain).

You cannot easily disconnect the injectors to look for a spray pattern as they are only held onto the fuel rail by clamping them to the engine. Unbolt the fuel rail to move the injector out of the way and there is a good chance that the fuel preasure would blow the injector off the rail.

For the spark plugs I just try using an inductive strobe light as a first check on each plug lead.

All the best

Keith

[Alfa33_2envy]

Hey everybody,

Listen Yvon, double check that the timing belts are tight. I had the same problem but now its all good. If its the timing belt then your loosing a good 10 Kw as well as getting bad noises.

ciao everybody i hope i helped out

[Chris Notsis]

Yvon - IF the injectors were ok before the work, then assume them to not be the problem. However, if they have never been ultrasonically cleaned and pressure/flow tested, then it may be worthwhile doing this anyway.

Timing - facing the engine from the front (easy if the bonnet and radiator are out) then set the right hand cam first (cyl 2 & 4). Then carefully turn the left hand side (cyl 1 & 3) slightly counter-clockwise so that the cam is under tension of the buckets - using a socket on the cam bolt can help). Turn so that the cam mark is just to the left of the cam box mark, slide the belt onto the toothed pulley then release the tensioner. It should allow the cam to move right and the marks should align. If not, then repeat the process. Once done, rotate engine BY HAND (using a socket on the crankshaft pulley) several times until you return to the 3 timing marks.

THis process can work straight away or it can take several attempts. THe key is to be slow and careful.

Good luck.
_________________
Chris Notsis

[Martini]

Hi Yvon!
I guess your car might have had the same bad luck as mine. The outer cambelt slipped off and after repairing the heads I hear the same noises as you do. My mech thinks it's the crank shaft bearings that has been destroyed when the pistons hit the valves. They should be pretty cheap and easy to change but it would be great to hear how you solved everything.

Regards,
Martin, Stockholm

[Yvon]

Many many thanks for all your responses.

Status today : did not change anything about engine. BUT, discover yesterday evening that a sensor was disconnected, however I'am sure I did the job. Probably, when I change the fuel rail I disconnect that sensor.

Try to find in doc what it was but unsucessfully. It is located behind the cylinder 4 on the head near the TDC sensor. It is a small cube and contact is above. A black wire should be connected to it. I clean everything and reconnect it. Engine is now keeping iddle .... good point

Another point, plugs are dead for cylinder 3 & 4. I change it last week, but dead again. Here are the pictures :



and


This evening, I'll change again and put brand new one (again ) and if it is still not running, I'll check the belt one more time following your advise.

I'll tell you the result tomorrow.

Once agin, thanks for your support and help,
Yvon
www.duvy.org

[ZeNiTh-PbArM]

hi

i suppose the sensor you're seeing is the engine coolant temperature sensor.
from the color of your spark plugs, i assume you're running rich on one of the cylindre banks.
since all injectors are supposed to have the same opening time (since they're wired in parallel), the source of the problem could be related to the air charge admitted in the cylinders (restriction somewhere?).
i suppose you already checked the synchronism between the butterflies for each bank of cylinders? as this may well be the origin of your problem.
[quick aparte : en clair, si les papillons d'un cote sont moins ouverts que l'autre, tu vas tourner trop riche sur deux des cylindres. c'est la qu'il faut chercher : qu'est-ce qui est commun a ces deux cylindres mais pas aux deux autres.]
besides, i'd check the valve timing for this cylinder bank as well.
if i remember well, the camshaft pulleys are held in place by some little woodruff keys (in french : des petites clavettes demi-disque) which can sometimes break, causing the pulley to be able to rotate freely on the camshaft. what usually occurs is that the pulley rotates around 5 degrees around the nose of the camshaft, then gets stuck and the valve timing is modified by a few degrees. this failure is often a pain in the ass to spot as timing marks are on the pulley but the camshafts are doing the job, so control of the timing belts reveal nothing!

Yvon, i wish you good luck with your engine, i hope to hear good news from you very soon...

regards
zp

[Yvon]

Hello ZP,

Not sure about the temp sensor, is it not located on the right side of admission pipe, under the hose coming from thermostat. There is a sensor there and I tought it was the temp one.

I've checked the butterflies and they seems correct. However one of the mecanic said, they need an adjustement. Anyway, not enough to cause that problem.

That's correct, I should look for something specific for cylinder 3 & 4. My opinion today is : that is too good for 1 & 2 and too bad for 3 & 4. So cameshaft is not positioned correctly. And marks are OK, so ....

About the timing pulleys .... hmmmm, you remember very well and this is an interesting deduction. I did the cameshaft bushing job, I unscrew all for to replace all bushing. I'll check this week-end and see if there is any play that can justify such a problem.

Thanks for your wishes and hope to give all of you good news soon.
Yvon

[ZeNiTh-PbArM]

hi Yvon,

i didn't know you had been removing the camshaft pulleys.
well, i suppose you know that the pulleys are not the same (there are 4 different part number for the 4 pulleys) and i hope you didn't swap any pulleys by mistake.
note also that the pulleys for left and right cylinder bank do not look the same (cote filtre a air elles sont pleines, de l'autre creuses), i take it for granted that you didn't fit the pulleys the wrong way (i.e. reverse two of them)
besides, there is also a woodruff key to lock the crankshaft pulleys, perhaps you need to have a look at that, too.

good luck with what seems to be a hell of a trick!

@+
zp

[Yvon]

Hi ZP,

No problem my friend, I respect all what you say and was aware (tiens y a qq'un d'autre ki dit ca !!) about that

Neither left or right neither upper or lower. Every pulley came back to the correct place=> two marks up, one mark down

Here is the picture.


You can check other pictures in
http://www.duvy.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=My_eGallery&file=index&do=showgall&gid=12

Thanks for the thougth,
Yvon

[Admin]

Hi

It is odd that it is cylinders 3 and 4 that are running rich, as there is nothing in common for these pair that should make a difference. Only thing I can suggest is getting the injectors cleaned.

Do I take it the sensor you have found is connected to the engine just behind cylinder 4, or is it just an electrical connection in that area. If so then it could be the lambda probe?

All the best

Keith

[Yvon]

I swap injector 1 and 3 to check. Same problem, cylinder 1 is running perfectly with injector from 3.

So I start to suspect a problem with the valves. Anything I do doesn't change the running condition. 1 is alsways fine and 3 is bad.

I am ready to open the engine

Ciao
Yvon