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jimshady Alfasud
Joined: 01 Apr 2012 Posts: 26
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:35 pm Post subject: 1.6 145 engine into 33 imola |
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Afternoon gents, as the title states I have a 1.6 engine from a 145 I have retained the ancillaries such as injectors an throttle butterfly etc.
My question is would I be able to put the 1.6 lump in and still use the 1.4 electronics, both engines run with the Weber IAW system. I dont have the 145 ecu so was hoping the 33 electronics would just 'adjust' itself regarding increased fuel and air requirements from the 1.6?
Is this theory sound or am I barking up the wrong tree? I have a set of Dellorto carbs with the manifolds sitting there but since buying it I decided I would quite like to keep it original (aside from the extra 200cc that is!) as the Imola seems fairly rare.
Any Ideas? |
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Joelomint Alfa Sprint
Joined: 08 May 2004 Posts: 119 Location: London
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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not 100% positive, maybe others can confirm, but isn't the 1.4 also known as a 1.5 in different regions? ie its the same engine?
If that's the case then the ecu should be able to work it out.. i guess the thing to check is if the 1.6 lumps use the same capacity injectors, throttle bodies, fuel rail etc? |
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jimshady Alfasud
Joined: 01 Apr 2012 Posts: 26
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I can tell, the injectors are the same and the throttle butterfly is the same.
So as I was hoping, the ecu will adjust the fuelling accordingly (we think!) |
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Is the original engine on the Imola no good?
Not sure it's worth the agro for an extra 13bhp.
Plenty of Imolas/Trofeos in France. And they were called either 1.3ie or 1.4ie. The 1.5ie is 1490cc.
I'm not sure the 1.6 block is as reliable as the 1.3. _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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Bellamachinna Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003 Posts: 352 Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I'm not sure the 1.6 block is as reliable as the 1.3 |
They are not. They share the crank with the 1.7 and they have tendency to "eat" the bearing shells _________________ All'interno della mia macchina, vi sedete, tenete sopra e CHIUDETE IN SU... |
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ZeNiTh-PbArM Alfa 33
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 388 Location: Paris, France
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
the 1.3/1.4 (1351) engine fitted to 33 and 145 was fitted with Weber Marelli fuel systems : IAW 8F.68 for 33 and IAW 8F.6B for 145. On german and greek markets 1.4 33s were fitted with a Bosch fuel system.
1.5 33s were fitted with Bosch system, early models with jetronic and later models with motronic (no AFM on motronic fuel system).
1.6 145s were fitted with Bosch fuel system or GM/Rochester fuel system.
I guess you'll find easier to get an ECU for your 1.6 engine than to adapt an IAW system. The best option woud still be to find a 1.3 engine from a 33, the extra cc is not worth the hassle.
Regards,
zp |
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jimshady Alfasud
Joined: 01 Apr 2012 Posts: 26
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I think this one is put to bed. Many thanks for the info gents, I think I'll just run it through the summer as I planned and go the 16v on carbs route if I can get hold of the engine. I already have the carbs and manifolds, and an old 1.3 lump for the dizzy etc.
Was hoping to keep her original, but fxxk it we'll go for raw power instead! |
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alfafan Alfasud
Joined: 16 Mar 2003 Posts: 83 Location: Coimbra - Portugal
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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jimshady wrote: |
Ok, I think this one is put to bed. Many thanks for the info gents, I think I'll just run it through the summer as I planned and go the 16v on carbs route if I can get hold of the engine. I already have the carbs and manifolds, and an old 1.3 lump for the dizzy etc. |
Where did you buy the manifolds for the 16V engine?
What did they cost you? |
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jimshady Alfasud
Joined: 01 Apr 2012 Posts: 26
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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I have the manifolds and carbs etc from my old 1.3 donor 33 |
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mg907 Alfasud
Joined: 12 Dec 2011 Posts: 38 Location: Italy
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to take advantage of this post for asking a question related to the argument: I've always been wondering if it is possible
to convert a EFI boxer engine, like the 1.3/1.6 ones mounted on the first series of 145/146, in a carb-dizzy one in order
to put it on a early 33/Sud.
I know for sure that the oil pump must be replaced because the support for the ignition distributor is required, but I still do not know if...
1) The hole for the distributor is present in the 145/146 engine rear block cover
2) It is possible to mount the carburetors intake manifolds on the heads
I suppose that it is still possible to maintain the original alternator, removing the power-assisted steering pump, if present
(and mounting a shorter belt)
Every advice will be really welcomed!
Mario |
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Admin Site Admin
Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1223 Location: Stafford, UK
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
Not certain. I have a feeling the hole for the dizzy isn't directly usable. However there were also 33s fitted with an ignition system that didn't use a distributor.
All the best
Keith _________________ I owe, I owe, its off to work we go.
Bimota Forum
Stafford Christmas Lights
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mg907 Alfasud
Joined: 12 Dec 2011 Posts: 38 Location: Italy
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Keith,
unfortunately my 33 is equipped with distributor and electronic ignition while the last boxers actually have static coils in place of the dizzy.
My question was due to the fact that there are still some chances to find 145/146 engines from the breakers but previous
boxers are now really hard to find! |
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jimshady Alfasud
Joined: 01 Apr 2012 Posts: 26
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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mg907 wrote: |
Thank you Keith,
unfortunately my 33 is equipped with distributor and electronic ignition while the last boxers actually have static coils in place of the dizzy.
My question was due to the fact that there are still some chances to find 145/146 engines from the breakers but previous
boxers are now really hard to find! |
Watch this space as I'll (hopefully) be doing just that. I stripped a 1.6 145 a while back and was hoping to use the 1.3 carb engine I already had to make a carbed 1.6 that looked exactly like the 1.3. After I got the imola the idea was the same, but to retain the weber injection that was on the 1.4 33 and 1.6 145. It would appear that this isnt a good plan, so its back to the carbs idea
Whatever happens I'll be getting the summer out of her before I get the spanners out! |
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ZeNiTh-PbArM Alfa 33
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 388 Location: Paris, France
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
You have to swap the engine rear block cover. While it is possible to adapt a dizzy, installing a fuel pump is not (the casting of the casing has to be drilled and milled).
Easier to do the swap. You need one new o-ring for the oil pressure way, and make sure you install the oil pump with the correct orientation.
regards,
zp |
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Bobkelso Alfa Sprint
Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 190 Location: Milan - Italy
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, some years ago my father did the inverse exchange,
he used a 1.3 block motor from a twin carb 33 as
complete spare for a 1.3 i.e. Imola 1991
(IAW ignition) with damaged block.
He was telling to me the only differences he noticed
(but in that case he didn't verify if oil pump were different
for the dizzy or not, as he simply removed the dizzy)
was a hole to close (I suppose is the one for the
mechanical fuel pump) and one to drill for a
different electronic sensor (may be one of the two sensors
for water temperature that are on the motor block??).
I don't know but I think he had also to swap the flywheel.
The motor worked very well for years without problems,
the exchange gave no issues.
In that case the resulting motor was so good that
after testing the car I had to verify the bore cylinder number
on the block, I had some doubt it was a 1.5 block, as wheels
were slipping on 2nd gear, but it seam the block was just a
'lucky' 1.3 (didn't know if it was running a little enriched
on fuel for some reason or previous owner's customization
of electronic part or if it was 'doped' with rebored cylinders).
Ps.: some one know if were are some differences
in valves' diameter, heads details, oil circuit, etc, between:
- 1.3 alfa 33 motor of 90-92
- 1.3 alfa 33 motor 93-94 (the very last series)
- 1.3 alfa 145 motor 94 ??
or between:
-1.7 alfa 33 8v motor of 90-92
-1.7 alfa 33 8v motor of 93-94?
-1.6 alfa 145 motor 94 ??
(for example I read somewhere oil circuit was better
in last boxers, with oil jets to cool pistons from below,
or valves had liquid sodium inner cooling?
but I don't know details and from what series..) _________________ Alfa 33 |
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Bellamachinna Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003 Posts: 352 Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
for example I read somewhere oil circuit was better
in last boxers, with oil jets to cool pistons from below,
or valves had liquid sodium inner cooling?
but I don't know details and from what series |
The oil jets, were introduced with the last 33`s 1.7 16v eqquiped with catalitic converter. Only on 1.7 16v. The 1.3 & 1.5 were unchanged.
The exhaust valves of the 16v were sodium filled to aid valve cooling.
As far as i`m aware, only the 1.7 16v got this upgrade. _________________ All'interno della mia macchina, vi sedete, tenete sopra e CHIUDETE IN SU... |
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Bobkelso Alfa Sprint
Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 190 Location: Milan - Italy
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Hi, I was trying today to verify this and other details on manuals
and Eper (spare's Fiat program), it seem that (not sure):
- work manual of alfa 145-146 1994 boxer says 1.3 and 1.6
have oil jets installed on the front and centre main bearing
caps to cool right pistons and it put some images,
I don't know if is an error of confusion with 1.7 16v,
so they are not present, or if they can be present also
on later 33 boxer 8v..
- it says also they have exaust valves with chromium-plated
stem ans liquid sodium filled, but this seem to be an error,
as Eper (Fiat) code for exaust valves is the same for
all alfa33 90-94 and alfa 145..
..or could exaust valves of every 33 90-94 be sodium filled??
(I ask as they cost twice the aspiration valves)
- alfa 33 90-94 1.3/1.5/1.7 and 145 1.3/1.6 seem
to share same valves (aspiration and exaust);
also camshafts are identical for all motors,
except they are been modified a little for one oring solution
(not modified in the cams) from the date 03-1992, so there are
two types of them based on the date, not on the motor model;
the only different camshaft seem to be one used
for a later revisited version of the 145 1.3
(with sligtly reduced cam total heigt from 37 mm (standard)
to 36,2 mm, different gears box ratios and ignition program) _________________ Alfa 33 |
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