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LoneWolf33 Alfa Arna
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Joined: 21 Sep 2013 Posts: 22 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
No short with ignition off. Just with key turned one click ie not engine running, but dash lit up.
Short symptoms disappeared with flywheel sensor disconnected. |
Sorry, then I misunderstood something... the pink and the black-green wire related stuff is irrelevant.
The flywheel sensor has a strong magnet inside, and it is sensitive to small
magnetic field changes. If the trigger wheel on the flywheel stops at tooth edge, it might trigger the ECU,
while the ignition is on, but the crankshaft is standing still.
If the car was in gear, and moved a bit during the test, the crankshaft may turned a bit.
Which dash lights are affected? |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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BigAl P4
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Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Attached just negative lead to battery and put live bulb wire across to earths on L-shaped attachment by starter motor. All fine, bulb lights up.
Disconnected wires from starter motor. When I put live to the main starter earth/-ve wire the bulb lights up momentarily and then fades out - should that be correct
- something is making a noise somewhere when I do that.
Other two wires by the main one do nothing, so maybe they work when ignition is on? _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188 |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:39 am Post subject: |
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In addition to the above, I have white wires going to -ve on the coil and one green/black wire going to +ve.
Is this correct
Don't think the starter motor wire/lead should be acting as above. Will check the lead this weekend. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188 |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: |
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paulhide wrote: |
Attached just negative lead to battery and put live bulb wire across to earths on L-shaped attachment by starter motor. All fine, bulb lights up.
Disconnected wires from starter motor. When I put live to the main starter earth/-ve wire the bulb lights up momentarily and then fades out - should that be correct
- something is making a noise somewhere when I do that.
Other two wires by the main one do nothing, so maybe they work when ignition is on? |
By "live bulb wire" do you mean you are using a test lamp with one side connected to the battery +, and the other to a loose wire which you are touching to various connections?
Which wire do you mean? The main (black) wire on the starter is the +ive from the battery _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, yes a live bulb wire just as you are describing.
I've got 3 leads going onto a 13mm nut fixture on the starter (which I've been testing as earth)
and a smaller wire with a spade fitting which I assume is the live exciter wire. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188 |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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paulhide wrote: |
Hi, yes a live bulb wire just as you are describing.
I've got 3 leads going onto a 13mm nut fixture on the starter (which I've been testing as earth)
and a smaller wire with a spade fitting which I assume is the live exciter wire. |
If you follow that cable from the 13mm a/f nut on the starter motor I think you'll find it goes to the battery + terminal.
So when you touch your wire to it you are feeding a +ive to all the wires connected to the battery + terminal, which really means nothing.
If you reconnect the battery and momentarily connect the spade fitting to the main terminal this should operate the starter motor.
If this is so, check you get a + at the wire to the spade terminal (removed from the terminal) when the key is moved to the Start position.
If not, the wire to the spade termimnal is broken somewhere, there is no + supply to the starter switch, or the switch is faulty. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Err no. It goes to the -ve terminal on all my cars - if it is the same lead that also goes to the 13mm earthing nut on the bulkhead by the heater.
Maybe I'm not checking carefully enough. I will double check tomorrow.
Are you saying all the wires going to the starter are live? Which is the earth? _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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The starter is bolted to the engine(or should I say gearbox) and is as such earthed. _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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eagle3 wrote: |
The starter is bolted to the engine(or should I say gearbox) and is as such earthed. |
That's why it's important to make sure one of the battery negative cables goes to the connection on top of the block. If not, the starter motor is not earthed ![Sad](images/smiles/icon_sad.gif) _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Right, thanks.
As you can see, struggling with a short circuit in the system is hard work for me with my minimal electrical knowledge.
The starter works, just the petrol pump isn't working even though the relays and pump itself are fine and I am getting a spark so flywheel sensor is working, I think. If I hard wire the pump at the relay it works. Wondering whether it might be ECU related. ?? _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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In principle the pump should pump fuel as long as the pressure sensor doesn't think the pressure's high enough.
So could be pressure sensor maybe? _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Not familiar with the 16V but my french Revue Technique refers to a pressure regulator and a security cut-off which cuts power to the pump if the engine isn't running.
The pressure regulator keeps the pressure at 2.5 bar and diverts the excess back to the tank.
When you turn on ignition the pump should turn and then stop if you don't start the engine. As soon as you start the engine it should work as long as the engine turns.
So sorry there's no sensor just the security cut-off. _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Rats that leaves me nowhere. Not sure what to check now.
There is a zeitrelais/timer relay - is that anything to do with the fuel pump
(and aside from that should the two white wires go to -ve on the coil, with black/green to +ve) What would happen if these were the wrong way round ![Question](images/smiles/icon_question.gif) _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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Ian M Green Cloverleaf
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Posts: 911 Location: Bath Somerset
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Hi Paul
I think I would be doing us all a favour if I took a little trip to billington and put a match to the bloody thing.
I am free this weekend ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) _________________ Presntly own
Red Abarth 500c |
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:38 am Post subject: |
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As the engine fired up and then died and you can't hear the pump buzzing I would check the fuel pressure is stable at 2.5 bar after the regulator.
Could be the pressure regulator not doing its job or some electrical fault which causes the security cut-off to action when the engine's turning.
In theory the pump should buzz for a second or two when you turn the ignition on, then stop(the security cut-off), then start buzzing again as soon as you crank the engine.
ZP's Imola site has some good info on the fuel supply system. Although the injection system on the Imola is different the supply side looks similar. Sorry it's in french! http://alfaimola.free.fr/technique/carburant/index.html
Here shows you how to check fuel supply pressure http://alfaimola.free.fr/technique/carburant/pression/index.html _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994
Last edited by eagle3 on Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LoneWolf33 Alfa Arna
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Joined: 21 Sep 2013 Posts: 22 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:37 am Post subject: |
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There is no electric fuel pressure sensor in the 33s. The priming is triggered by a simple timer within the ECU.
This timer responsible for the fuel cut-off when the flywheel stops turning over.
The timer is become reseted on every pulse, received from the flywheel sensor.
If no pulse received the timer expires (800 to 1000 msec predefined interval), the pump will stop.
Some 33 ECUs are not priming the fuel pump at all, including the Bosch Motronic MP3.1 (used on late 1.5IE and 1.7IE models),
and the Bosch Motronic ML4.1 (used on the 16V models). These ECUs will start the pump on the first pulse from the flywheel sensor. |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, that clarifies things somewhat. Should have time today.
Thanks, Ian, for your helpful idea. Although I have often felt the same way, I have no running car at the moment so I would like to get it going. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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john 33_16v 16 Valve
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Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 1406 Location: herts, uk
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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paulhide wrote: |
If I hard wire the pump at the relay it works. |
Try another relay.
I had fun with a fuel pump relay and/ or ignition relay a while back and the mustard coloured relay (fuel??) worked on the bench with a battery and wires etc but didn't on the car- so guessing that while the contact was closing it wasn't good enough. When i shorted across the relevant terminals all was good on the car.
Got a replacement relay on ebay at 2nd attempt- they're pretty common but have two different circuit configs.
John _________________ If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue |
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Do you know how old the fuel pump is? _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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paulhide P4
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Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hi John, have replaced pump and ignition relays with spares (maybe they don't work either?!)
I put a wire across the pump relay terminals and with ignition on can now here the fuel pump working permanently.
Turn the key another click to start and now the engine turns but won't fire at all whereas it did before.
Changed ECU. No difference. Put old one back.
Checked one plug for spark -ok (Had previously checked compression and spark on all cylinders/plugs)
So changed the injectors and fuel regulator/pulse dampener from the old engine (which were all fairly new) and still won't fire.
When I turn the key, the indicator light flashes briefly on the dash. There is an old dead alarm. Could this have any bearing?
In theory unless belts have just moved, I've got compression, I've got spark and using a bridging wire I can hear fuel pump. ![Crying or Very sad](images/smiles/icon_cry.gif) _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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Joelomint Alfa Sprint
Joined: 08 May 2004 Posts: 119 Location: London
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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If the old alarm has an imobilizer, then certainly could be an aggravating factor |
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Ian M Green Cloverleaf
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Posts: 911 Location: Bath Somerset
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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A more sensible reply now Heidi
I once helped a neighbour change everything on an Astra GTE or something similar,cant quite remember it was a long time ago, it was definitely injected tho.
Anyway we changed the fuel pump amongst other things as it wasnt working.
It turned out to be a blown line fuse in the imobiliser circuit that was causing it to not operate.
Replaced the fuse and away she went. _________________ Presntly own
Red Abarth 500c |
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