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alfistjen · Alfasud Joined: 30 Jul 2003 Posts: 59 Location: Belgium

Hi guys,

after being out of 33-ing for a while the virus has multiplied and the boxer-fire is burning again like never before. Now I have a question for the Sud drivers amongst you...
I now have a 33 to break, but I was wondering, are the mc phersons from the 33 interchangeble with the sud ones, or is the construction totally different due to the inside mounted brakes? It's because I'm actually planning to build a sud-33 cross over with the 33 front driving train and powersteering, together with 1700 engine. (I know I know, it's not the way a sud is meant to be, but have a little wreck in sight which I want to experiment with, Am looking for a nice one to restore in original sud-condition). Does anybode have any experience with cross-breading them?

Regards!

Paul D.

33 1.7 ie Zender-Ronal

johnboy

Hi there,

there is a guy in Denmark who put a 16v in a sud,and turned it into a racer. there has been people that have put 16v's in sprint's as well.so i can't see why you can't do it . the site is denmark's fastest alfasud,it's quite a car Cool

hope that help's

john
_________________
WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!

Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet

Ketil-no

You can take the whole front end assembly and move it over (suspension arms, macpherson leg, brakes and driveshafts and possible the gearbox too). But to fit the power steering is more difficult. The mounting holes of the rack is in the same place. But the spline and the position of "the outlet" into the cabin is different. But it is possible with an anglegrinder and a welder....

The engine it self will fit if you fit the front beam from a 16v car, but you will have to modify the crank pulley. Have a look here:http://www.alfasprint16v.fws1.com

So: mount everything from the 16v car into the Sud, except the steering rack. That the easiest.

Regards Ketil

alfistjen · Alfasud Joined: 30 Jul 2003 Posts: 59 Location: Belgium

That's the stuff I wanted and like to hear Very Happy

Think I gonna start from the moment the weather and equipment allows it. Wanne build a little mean sud to Kittens off all the Saxo VTS and 106 GTi's here. The 33 allready could finish them on roadholding, now the sud should help doing it on speed too.

Regards!
One proud young alfa driver in a pool of little nasty french cars

Paul D.

johnboy · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Sounds good

Wanne build a little mean sud to Kittens off all the Saxo VTS and 106 GTi's here. The 33 allready could finish them on roadholding, now the sud should help doing it on speed too.

OUTSTANDING! Cool

you go for it,i'm getting pissed off with clio's where i live,they've all got stupid kit's the size of small house's on them.but have 1.3L engine's in them Twisted Evil

have fun
john Cool

_________________
WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!

Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet

sud 35 · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:07 am Post subject:

You can also leave the sud gearbox and brakes in and have 4 front discs. That way you don't have to put the 33 rear end in for the handbrake. More importantly though, you get great brakes!

I have had this system on my race car for the last 12 years, you can outbrake almost anything, with no fade at all.

If you are thinking about a 16V engine, you'll also need the front crossmember, or modify the sud one, the 16v one would be better. it has anti-dive built in.

My car has had a 16V supercharged engine in it for the last year or so (only been reliable for the last 2 races, but now exceeds my expectations!). It puts out about 170hp at the wheels. I can send you a picture of the engine if you like (the front end space frame may be a little radical for a street car though...)

Hope you give those Frenchys hell!!!

Jas.

alexj · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:33 am Post subject:

Leaving the sud gearbox also retains the cable drive for the speedo.... handy on a road car. You also might want to check which set of gear ratios will suit you best:

http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/gearbox.htm

If it's an 8valve engine you can just swap the engine, otherwise for a 16v you might want to swap the lot except gearbox (refer links given by Ketil). Picture of the Denmark 16v sud is here:

http://www.8ung.at/alfasud/asree9.html

Regards, Lex

johnboy · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:46 pm Post subject:

My car has had a 16V supercharged engine in it for the last year or so (only been reliable for the last 2 races, but now exceeds my expectations!). It puts out about 170hp at the wheels. I can send you a picture of the engine if you like (the front end space frame may be a little radical for a street car though...)

hi jas,

can you e-mail me some photo's of your engine?

thank's
john
_________________
WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!

Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet

sud 35 · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 4:49 pm Post subject:

I have just quickly added a page to my company's site with a pic of the engine.

Go to http://www.studiocommercial.com.au/alfasud.html

Jas.

Ketil-no · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:48 am Post subject:

Jas,
I'm totally amazad about your supercharger installation, and I really like what you have done with your car!
But could you please tell me some more??
I can see from the picture that you have "thrown away" the invidiual throttle bodies, and installed a singel throttle body in front of the supercharger.
What make is the supercharger? Roots?
There is 3 radiators in your car. The water radiator in front? The other two? Could you tell me some more?
What have you done with the ignition? Aftermarked system?
The compression ratio, what is that? And if you have lowered it, how did you do it?
The fuel system, tell me more about that...

Many questions, but please.....

Regards Ketil

Eddie W · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:03 am Post subject:

Jas
Awesome car,love superchargers. Used to have a blown mg years ago and it went like gangbusters . First setup was 21lbs boost on 9.5 to1 comp.Lasted a whole weekend before the detonation killed it. Of course in those days we didn't have anti knock and intercoolers and all the trick stuff available today. Second setup was max 17lbs boost on 8.5 to 1 and that lasted a long time . Finally locked the blower at 100mph which really sharpened the concentration somewhat. Still have ambitions to blow one of our 33s in a streetable form, probably using a blower from a 4AGZE. Probably build a motor to suit with a comp. ratio around 8.5 and blow at9-10 lbs with intercooler. Comments?
Regards Eddie

Guest · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:27 am Post subject:

Hi Guys,
Some answers to questions:

Comp ratio: 8.5:1 (may be 8:1, I'd have to check)
Boost is about 9psi (could probably take up to 12psi easily, more development needed, but is very reliable now, maybe after I get the LSD for the gearbox Very Happy

)
Forged pistons
larger radiator and oil cooler (runs a bit too cool now)
Toyota SC14 supercharger (from a 1GGZE I think)
Intercooler from Toyota Supra (mounted where the heater used to be, cool air comes from the front airdam ducted underneath to blow through cooler up through vent in bonnet, temp around 40-60C when racing)
Lots of custom made bits and pieces :big end bearings, copper head gaskets, induction system, swirl pot for fuel delivery, supercharger wheels etc.
Haltech E6K ignition & fuel management.
Final dyno tuning done by Vince Rigoli in Sydney (Vince really knows how to wring the last ounce of performance from an engine!).
This is unfortunately not a quick bolt on system, it has taken 2 years and 3 engine rebuilds and lots of modifications and frustration (and money!!!!) to get to this stage.
Fastest time so far at Eastern Creek Raceway is 1:48.9 with lots of wheelspin. The next thing to look at (after the LSD) is to fine tune the suspension a bit more. Maybe then we can look at more boost!!

Hope this answers some questions.
Jas.

Eddie W · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:58 pm Post subject:

Hi Jas
What were the reliability probs as the boost isn't in the radical range? Admittedly a road car doesn't run at the max boost for very long without running out of road or licence or both but my good friends son has recently upped the boost on his Evo 1 to close on 1 bar without any other changes and has no problems. The MG I mentioned earlier had a 1650cc Ford motor with a beefed up bottom end,big valve head,special blower cam grind and sucked through a 45 DCOE Weber. Also a locked dizzie. The comp may have been 7.5 to1 (it was a long time ago) but I remember seeing 17lbs on the guage a number of times. If floored in 2nd gear it would pour smoke off. the 7inch tyres like a dragster. Anyway enough nostalgia, I'm very interested as it looks like I'll have to rethink the idea somewhat to arrive at a streetable setup. Any more info would be very much appreciated.
Regards Eddie

sud 35 · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:12 pm Post subject:

Hi Eddie,

The main problems were with the cooling (size and positioning of the radiator and oil cooler), a road car would have less problems in this regard as it wouldn't be on max revs all the time. The boost level on a street car could be set higher as it wouldn't be on boost as long as a race car, the race engine has to be able to withstand max revs on full boost constantly for anywhere up to 20 minutes or more. I think my engine could take a fair bit more boost, but at this stage it is very reliable(for the last 2-3 races anyway Very Happy

) and I'm having lots of fun beating some more fancied machinery! I'll look at more boost later.
One of the rebuilds was from big end bearing failure (helped along by high temps), we then machined down normal bearings from an Alfa in-line 4 cylinder engine as the journal size is the same, but the bearing material is copper/lead construction, not aluminium, changed oil to Castrol R, combined with bigger coolers, so far so good.
After a bit more Dyno work, it was also discovered that the injectors we had were maxing out at the top end.
So really, it wasn't one big problem causing failures, it was a combination of a few smaller ones, it's getting less frustrating and more enjoyable now, that's what it's all about (I think).

Jas.

Eddie W · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:28 pm Post subject:

Excellant.Thanks Jas. I see a number of the guys racing over here feed the oil return from the cooler directly into the main gallery in the block,I gather to improve bottom end reliability. Have you done this also? The old race/rally BDA Escorts used to do the same to improve the life of the centre main.
Regards Eddie

sud 35 · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:42 pm Post subject:

Hi Eddie,
I haven't done that mod. The Italians did that when they bought a 33 out to Australia race at Bathurst many years ago. The mains don't seem to have as much of a reliability problem as the big ends.
Most people I speak to don't bother to do it. I think a well baffled sump, good oil pressure and keep the temp under control and you should be right!
Jas.

Eddie W · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:41 pm Post subject:

Thanks Jas
I seem to have endless questions Confused

Hope you don't run out of patience. How did you overcome the torque steer situation? I see you run the standard top mounts not an adjustable. Some guys here have replaced the rubber with urethane. Are those coilover struts? I'm curious about your location of the intercooler in what I would have expected to be a reasonably high pressure area to vent into . Weight distribution? Do you run a rear swaybar with a heavier front one? Have you got the later anti dive front layout? All in all it looks like a real weapon with a lot of development.
REgards Eddie

Kristian · Alfa Arna Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 15

Hi Jas
I would be more interested from the 4 disc setup. Is it possible to use the Sud original main cilinder with that setup or will the pedal go too long.

Thanks in advance
Kristian
82 Alfasud Sprint Veloce Trofeo

sud 35 · Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:17 pm Post subject:

Hi Eddie/Kristian,

You can't use the Sud master cylinder, I have one off a Toyota Landcruiser (I think it's about 26mm, Sud one is 21mm or 19mm, can't remember, been so long). It no longer has a booster. You will need a bias valve to reduce the pressure to the rear brakes.

Torque steer is there, especially off the start, it has been reduced with the anti dive front end (which is a modified Sud crossmember, well before they were standard on 33s!). I have some adjustable lower arms coming from Adie at AHM (also thinking about his coilovers and LSD). standard 33 struts so far, with revalved Konis and 500lb springs all round. It used to handle really well before I put the new engine in! The suspension is next on the revision list. No idea what the weight distribution is, it weighs 835kg, with a hefty, extensive steel cage welded in (I want to live if something goes horribly wrong....), it used to oversteer a fair bit before the front spoiler and rear wing, now I think the rear could be a bit stiffer. It has urethane bushes all round, no rear bar at this stage, has a sud sprint front bar (same thickness all round, think it is about 18mm).

The intercooler gets fed from beneath from ducts at the front, the air goes up through the bonnet, seems to work alright.

Sorry it's taken a while to respond, my wife and I have recently had a baby boy (our first), Rudy is just 2 months old and been to the race track 3 times already!

Regards, Jas.

johnboy · Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:39 am Post subject:

Sorry it's taken a while to respond, my wife and I have recently had a baby boy (our first), Rudy is just 2 months old and been to the race track 3 times already!

Hi jas

been reading your posts, what a top sud,it's that car that got me hooked an alfa's, congrad's with the baby glad to see your starting him young Wink

all the best

john
_________________
WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!

Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet

Guest · Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject: Brakes

Hi Jas,

Awesome motor man! I am real interested in your 4 disc brake set up, could you explain more or any pics? I have a Sud, still uses inboard brakes but have uprated the discs to Tarox 40 groove and Tarox fast road pads, I also have a brake bias for the rear brakes aswell, whilst this is better than stock, it still isn't really enough (well not for my style of driving!!! haha)

Any info most appreciated.

Jaty.

Guest · Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:01 am Post subject:

Hi Jas
Congratulations to your wife and yourself Very Happy

Every Alfisti should be following your example and breeding more of us until we have the numbers to take over the world Twisted Evil

Open speed limits, no cops and every road (including motorways) to have at least 3 testing corners per K. Ah Utopia.
Regards Eddie

Eddie W · Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:06 am Post subject:

Oops,that was me above. Needless to say petrol would be 10 cents per litre
Eddie

johnboy · Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:45 am Post subject: