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burgo90 · Alfa Sprint Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 118

ive decided im going to have ago at this on my 1.5 twin carb as i want abit more power and im bored to b onist. the way i plan to do this is modify a turbo, i have a small turbo comin to me off a 1.7td astra, i plan to remove the exhaust side of the turbo and find a way of mountin a pulley to this end to drive the compressor end. obviously this will be driven off the spare pulley at the front of the engine (what is that for?) so the supercharger will be mounted on top of the block. i plan tomodify the air box to fit round the supercharger and then ur the charger to presurize the air box. im only after small boost as i dont want to do major engine mods rite now. i also plan on puttin 40 jets in my 36's. as i sed im only doin this as a little project so if it works ill do more work to the engine to make it more reliable. can anyone see a problem with this plan and if so how would u go about it???

thanks for the advice ppl
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Matt Stolton · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:01 am Post subject: Sounds like an odd one

I think supercharging would be easier than turboing, mostly due to the horrible mess you would have to make of the manifolds to feed the exhaust to the turbo.

However, you may be better off getting a small charger from a scrapper, rather than try to use a modified turbo. You may not be able to drive the blades at any useful RPM to get any real boost.

Other logistical problems include having 4 downdrafts. AFAIK you generally have to go backwards in inlet plenum design, and it is generally easier to have a single carb/butterfly after the charger. Further more, you will have to cool the inlet gases post charger, with an air to air intercooler. Also keeping the carbs could also be a problem, as I believe only certain carbs are designed to take chargers (I think solex made one). It would be easier, especially to get the most out of the system, to go injection with a programmable ecu. Some sort of 1.5 i.e. inlet system may be a better starting point.

The other thing to consider is compression ratio. It is the norm to drop compression ratio, to combat low end knocking and pinking. However Novitec recently bi-charged a Ferrari 360 without opening the engine up, in a very clever way. Basically they only ran a small amount of boost, typically up to 0.6 bar, and changed the pulleys so that boost was only effectively created from 4K RPM onwards (i.e. once the engine was already on cam) With a remap to bung more fuel in as the air was forced in, they got a good progressive dial in of the charger, producing some very inpressive figures, without having to rebuild the block or heads!!! Check out Autoitalia for the full story.
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Regards

Matt

Ex Alfa 33 'GTA' (P4 with Knobs On)
Now cruising in a 166 3.2 Ti!!

Eddie W · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:54 am Post subject:

I also am interested in supercharging one of our 1.7s. Forget the centrifugal compressor they have rarely been used for 'charging because of the limitations. The pumping ability goes up as the square of the revs, this means that to have any useful boost at lower revs you will blow the heads off at higher rpm. The ideal blower is that off a Toyota 4AGZE as used in the MR2 and some Levins. This is sized to boost a 1.6 motor and should adapt to the 33 quite well. As Matt has stated, intercooling is desirable but not absolutely necessary. Lowering the compression to 8.5 and boosting around 9lbs should be streetable with suitable reduction of ignition advance. You can blow through the carbs and this is the way that I would go but some carbs require encapsulating in a box that is pressurised by the blower so that the pressure in the float chamber is equal to that at the carb throat. Weber/Dellorto type carbs can need special emulsion tubes to handle the fuelflow required at high boost.
Remember HP equals heat and the cooling system at the very least will need to be 100% and may need improvement.
To revert to the question of centrifugal type blowers, the beauty of supercharging is the bags of instant grunt anywhere in the rev range and you would throw that away with the setup you are describing.
Incidentally, one V belt will not drive a blower worth bolting on. Two minimum and preferably three A or B section with back tension. Of course a cog belt would be the ideal.
Regards Eddie
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burgo90 · Alfa Sprint Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 118

hmm cheers for the replys lads the only reason i was going to convert a turbo is that im gettin one free and as money is tight i thought i mite try it, altho after readin what you have put it seems i need to scrap the idea due to the carbs Sad

. so ive came up with another idea what about usin an inlet manifold off a 1.7i like this one

bur modify it so the it bolts str8 to the block then get hold a renault 5 turbo carb and bolt that to it. could this work ???? and ill keep an eye out at me scrappie for a proper supercharger any ideas of a car i mite find down there that will have one. and how should i go about lowering the compression mines a 1.5 by the way.

thanks very much for all your help ppl
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burgo90 · Alfa Sprint Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 118

ive bin doin a bit of research and found that u can modify the weber idf's to be used with turbos am i rite in thinkin all i need is the emulsion tubes
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tvatavuk · Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:01 am Post subject:

For some reason and I don't know which one, I think that 1.7 ie 8v and 1.7 16v (on pic) have different inlets. 16v version have inlet tubes on head more appart then 8v (can anyone confirm or deny this?).
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo

BILL · Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:15 pm Post subject:

paddy granger · Alfa Sprint Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 248

Maybe it would be a good idea to study the sliding vane type Judson supercharger, as fitted to many Volkswagen Beetle engines. Being a 4-cyl boxer, it can't be too far off!

Some info:

"The design favoured by Judson, was the sliding vane type. Here, the air/fuel is scooped into the supercharger by a serie of sliding vanes mounted on an eccentric hub. As the hub rotates, the vanes are thrown out under centrifugal force and seal against the inside of the supercharger body, pressurising the mixture and finally blowing it out into the inlet port. The inlet temperatures is kept down to reasonable levels as the gases are allowed to expand once they are free of the blower unit.

Temperatures are further kept down by virtue of the fact that vane type superchargers, being more efficient, usually operate at engine speed, as opposed to being overdriven as with other designs.

Judson supercharger is driven by a pair of drive belts run off a special crankshaft pulley that still allows use of the original generator drive. The blower itself is mounted on top of the standard inlet manifold, with the original Solex carburettor then fitted to the inlet side of the supercharger.

As the vanes need to be kept well lubricated, oil is fed to the inlet manifold of the Judson from a glass container filled with engine oil. This oil is drawn into the supercharger by inlet vacuum and, after lubricating the vanes, passes into the engine to be burnt along with the fuel. Judson claimed this helped engine longevity by acting as an upper cylinder lubricant."

This was ofcourse for a small VW engine, and with the supercharger only delivered 36hp SAE. Would the design be compatable with the 33?

burgo90 · Alfa Sprint Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 118

looks like im gonna have to do alot of research altho the way that vain supercharger is set up could b a gd idea. at least that way u dint have o modify the carb that much as it wont b presurized it will just work as normal, so many ways but which one to choose Confused

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james · Alfasud Joined: 01 Apr 2003 Posts: 82

Have a look on the alfa 145 forum

http://www.alfa145.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=64&hl=

AJ seems to know his stuff on the TS, im sure you could get some info on S/C.

Also theres a tread about turboing a Boxer.
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Umm thinking of getting a Alfa 33 P4 16v cloverleaf.

I would have done but i could not see any nice ones, so on the end i went for a 145 QV. Very happy with it

But still looking for a nice cheep 33 cloverleaf.

Guest · Guest

Hi

Just saw a Sprint with VWtd turbo. It is a 1,5 std engine with modded cams- colder. Uses 1,7 inlet manifold, cooler and programmable ecu. Can use 1 bar and gives 200+ hp at 6500rpm. Hell of a job to get the stuff in a Sprint and blows easily std pistons. With forged pistons it´ll run without problems. Building costs about 5k euros, no way around if one buys all parts for it.
And the heat...

Easiest way to get more power out of a 1,5ti is to get alittle more compression ratio and clean manifolds, with best luck You can get 125hp out of it, cheaply. It can really be felt when driving..

Just my 2 cents

TimoJ

Guest · Guest

A link to a pic: http://www.alfabbs.fi/album_pic.php?pic_id=1637

Hoping it works Shocked

TimoJ

burgo90 · Alfa Sprint Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 118

thats a fookin tight squeeze aint it
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James Granger · Alfa 33 Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 302

Eddie W · Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:31 pm Post subject:

Heat is the enemy in supercharging as in turboing. Compressing air whether in the supercharger itself as a vane type Judson or Shorrocks or in the manifold as in a Rootes type blower will produce a temperature rise which is undesirable. Hence the advent of intercoolers used today in Turboing. High boosts can also lead to Adiabatic compression which as I understand it(I'm no physicist) is a pressure rise due to heat generated gas expansion in a confined space. Detonation in the combustion chamber can result. I found out the hard way. Most modern ECU controlled turbo installations incorporate anti knock sensors which control this.
This means that for anS1/S2 installation the parameters should be designed to not go overboard. Any breathing improvements such as bigger valves, ported heads,blower type cams(higher lift, less overlap) will allow higher gas flows for less actual boost pressure which in turn reduces the risks from heat. Again an intercooler is protection as wellas power gain.
Also bear in mind that your oil does a significant amount of cooling in the motor as well as lubricating so obviously an oil cooler and possibly an expanded capacity sump would be of advantage. Plus an uprated radiator.
I don't want to put any of you off supercharging as I'm a great fan of it myself and stiil plan to look at 'charging one of ours but if you wish to do it on a near stock motor then keep it within limits or plan it as a complete package with the problems in mind.
On reflecting on the blow through carb side, I think I would suck through a 45DCOE as I did on my MG and blow into a fabricated manifold that replaces the carbs. I would choose a Rootes type blower(as in 4AGZE) on its side and have the inlet underneath and the outlet on top into a plenum and mnifold similar to the injection one.
Regards Eddie
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burgo90 · Alfa Sprint Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 118

ive got no probs with the intercooler do u think this one is big enough

lol
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Eddie W · Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:48 am Post subject:

Looks man enough for the job Rolling Eyes

Regards Eddie
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Guest · Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject:

Just a thought - would one have to modify the exhaust manifold to allow for the forced induction to flow better? I have heard that on normally aspirated engines, pipes with equal lengths are required, whereas with forced induction it is important to have less resistance (eg bigger, less sharp bends).

Guest · Guest

Hi

Have You seen this

http://www.alfabbs.fi/album_pic.php?pic_id=1459
http://www.alfabbs.fi/album_pic.php?pic_id=1377
http://www.alfabbs.fi/album_pic.php?pic_id=1556

It will have screwcompressor and possibly 2 turbos on a 16v engine. .

The guy can really do it, he really can.

TimoJ

The time of the Alfa Boxer is not over Shocked

Laki · Alfasud Joined: 06 Sep 2004 Posts: 74 Location: Ljubjana

From other forum site!! Somewhere from Netherland

Roberto Glordaneill drives a 33 with a difference.
I don't like Alfa Romeo 33s. I don't like turbo, and I don't like Alfa Romeo specialists Alfa Aid. So when the all came to test Adrian Jardine's (Alfa Aid's boss) 33 1.7 ie turbo, I was hand-rubbingly looking forward to rubbishing it Why don't I like Alfa 33s? The fault list is endless.

However the other day I had occasion to borrow one (a standard 1.7 on carbs). I had a 300 mile journey to make that included some country roads as well as motorways. It was better than going by bus. As there were no other cans on offer and no bus I drove the 33 and decided I had been too critical as I quite enjoyed the rorty engine and the sporty handling Maybe 33, aren' so bad after all.

Why don't I like turbos? The power delivery is not linear.
They get very hot. They clutter the engine compartment. They are expensive when they go wrong. There must be a love/hate thing here because despite all the terrors of the turbo, I have been playing with them since 1974.
You do get bags of power and torque kern them relative to the engine's weight. Maybe turbos aren't so bad after all.

Why don't I like Alfa Aid? Because every time I visit them, they take the mickey because all I do is "swan around in exotic cars collecting my huge writing cheques". Which of course is true, so maybe Alfa Aid isn't so bad after all.
It started life as a 1.7 ie but now the dark metallic green 33 looks serious in a non-red sort of way. Standing on 17" Momo Arrow alloys with low profile 215x40x 17 A510 Yokos and was complemented by the Zender body kit, the racing fuel cap and 155 BTCC style rear spoiler. The interior has been improved with Recaro seats from a Permanent 4. A Momo leather wheel and gear knob, aluminium sport pedals a boost gauge and a stereo system that can be measured on the Richter Scale.

To cope with all the hurtling about, there are lowered progressive rate sport springs, lower Koni adjustable dampers, Eibach uprated front anti-roll bar an OMP front strut brace, ventilated grooved front discs OMP pads and braided hoses.
The hurtling about is thanks to the special turbo conversion. This was designed and developed in conjunction with Tony Favorin of Road & Racing Developments in Oxford. A Garret T3 turbo sits atop the 1.7 flat-four. Specialy fabricated exhaust tubes from each of the cylinder banks power it. The spent gas is then sent down a special 3" stainless exhaust system. The standard aluminium inlet manifold is cut and shut to accept the 0.8 bar (12psi) of boost.
To stop the engine from instantly exploding a lot of insurance work has gone into the bits you can’t see. The cylinder core, have been sleeved down one millimeter to 86mm -the size of the special forged pistons. This has reduced the capacity from 1,712cc to 1,688 cc and lowered the compression ratio from 9.5:1 to 7.2:1. The internals have been balanced. There is an intercooler nicely placed up front, dump valve, enlarged injectors and an oil cooler
The 33 starts and runs smoothly - that's a good thing about turbo engines, unless they are on boost they are very docile. Power delivery up to 3,000rpm is less than a standard 33 but OK for keeping up with the traffic. From 3,000rpm onwards boost happens.
Now the 33 is noticeably much more torquey than a standard car. Typical of many turbos top end power tails off. This is of no consequence as an early gearchange will coincide with its 3,700 ish peak torque band that's where the acceleration is to be found. The 33 has never been on a dyno or rolling road and power is estimated at 175bhp.

At this level of boost the conversion works well, 12psi (0.8 bar) is about as high as you can go without spending heavy money. Alfa Aid's future plans are to replace the standard injection and ECU with a programmable system set up on a dyno. The Motec system would be ideal as it is compatible with virtually all manufacturers sensors and systems. It is fully and easily programmable and has proved itself thoroughly in top-class international motorsport Alfa Aid also intend fitting larger diameter front brakes and a rear disk brake conversion. Also coming is a later type Recaro interior and an even more earth baking stereo. (Be careful big stereos usually mean bad everything else)
The 33's torque steer, which causes lateral leaping from standing starts, is still there but no worse as the turbo is no quicker off the line. On the move the chassis copes well with the extra power. Cornering is typical of modified road-going 33. There is initial understeer with tuck-in or lift-off oversteer when pushed at speed. Does anyone make a rear anti-roll bar for a 33? More rear roll stiffness would sharpen turning and reduce understeer. Although it would then take an experienced frontwheel pilot to handle it at speed. Testing Adrian's 33 wasn't so bad after all.
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Guest · Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:49 pm Post subject:

Sud block with supercharger

burgo90 · Alfa Sprint Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 118

sweet as fook

where did u find this pic plz plz tell me
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Guest · Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:21 am Post subject:

I found it on a dutch Alfa Forum, but have no clue where it originally comes from. No specs either, but I like the way the carb is set up.

Paddy

evanbottcher · Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:07 pm Post subject:

Hi Guys - the picture was originally on the South Australian alfa club web page. It's from Lloyd Clonan's Sirius race car - a home built race car with a Sud boxer engine. Unfortunately the pages have come down, but you can read the details using the google cache: http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:pRzYOtDc4IYJ:www.alfaclub.org.au/philstorr/sirius/sirius2.htm+lloyd+clonan&hl=en

I'm sure you could contact Lloyd via the alfa club http://www.alfaclubsa.org.au if you want more details.

cheers,
Evan.
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'69 1750 GTV

paddy granger · Alfa Sprint Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 248

There is also a member on the dutch Alfa Forum who actually supercharged his race prepped 33 16v. The car doesn't run any more, as somebody crashed into him at Zandvoort shortly after the project was finished!

I asked him last night how he fitted the supercharger, and this is his reply:

"Well, a lot was done! And I didn't do all of it - most of the time I was just watching.

To start off with, the block remained completely standard. The 4 original throttle valves were removed, including the entire fuel supply system. The collection point of the inlet manifold was removed, and was replaced by a box which was attached on top of the air exit point of the supercharger. The supercharger was also directly attached to the block. From the supercharger, the air goes to a throttle valve of a 164 (I think a twinspark), and then on to the air meter. To make sure that the mix and ignition was in order, injectors from a V6 were used, and the chip was remapped by Beek Autoracing.

For all of the belts, the pullies were modified due to the lack of space, and a dynamo from a Japanese donor was used.

Oh yeah, the supercharger came from a Mercedes."