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Mixsynth

Help with 16V conversion again please!

On the injection loom there are two relays. Both relays should trip at the same time, when the ignition is turned on (and yes I have connected the injection loom's ignition-on trigger wire and it gets a current with the ignition switch). The one that controls the current to the fuel pump does not trip.

I don't have my wiring diagrams at the moment so I can't give page or other numbers.

Leading into the relay that doesn't trip, there are four wires: two red, a pink/white, and a black/grey. One red wire provides the 12V current to the fuel pump, via the pink/white, when the relay trips; the other red provides current to trip the relay when the ignition turns on, and that current leaves via the black/grey.

My question: where does the black/grey go? I'm sure that's where the problem lies. I've tried following it on the diagram and it goes to "point 20" on something labelled "S11". I have no idea what either of those are supposed to be and I couldn't see them mentioned anywhere else in the wiring diagrams.

Hope somebody knows what I'm on about and can help. Thanks.
_________________
Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations

James Granger · Alfa 33 Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 302

Hugh,

According to my Dutch 33 manual, S11 is the 'electronic injection regulator (Motronic ECU)' - could be the ECU itself. My wiring diagram confirms that the black/grey wire go's into point 20 of S11.

Paddy Granger

johnboy

Hi there,
just got my 16v fired up so happy bunny now.S11 is your ECU,but it sound's to me like it's your relay what is not working,because it should switch without the ECU connected.so that should be ok.you say you have 12v @ the main red wire,pink & white is for the pump.if the motronic relay clicks when you turn the ignition on then it has to be the pump relay has a fault.but if you sore it working in the other car then the chances are it's ok.you will just have to check every wire,that's what i did,but now i have a work shop disk for the 16v motronic which is what you need.then it will make sence sort of?
hope that help's good luck
p.s let me know how you get on, john

Mixsynth · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:54 am Post subject:

Thanks - of course you're right - S11 is the ECU. So the black/grey goes there.

Had a thought.

Does it make a difference if the battery isn't charged up properly? Would the ECU stop the relay from tripping in that case? Tried turning the engine over and the current would hardly push the motor round so maybe it's that?

If so I can simply charge up the battery properly and maybe it will work?
_________________
Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations

Gary UK · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:10 pm Post subject:

If the battery has been left flat for more than a couple of weeks it will be shot and not hold it's charge!! When the battery is discharged crystals form on the suface of the lead electrodes and once this has happened you can't reverse the process

Mixsynth · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:34 pm Post subject:

No it's not completely flat. It's got a charge, just not enough to turn the engine over before fading away.

But would the lack of charge prevent the relay (the fuel pump relay) from tripping, via the ECU? I don't get how it could have broken since it was running fine in the car it was previously installed in (only a couple of months ago).
_________________
Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations

Mixsynth · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:44 am Post subject: WAHEY!!!

Good news: THE THING RUNS!!! Very Happy

Got it working today. Put in the remaining fuel hose, had to 'suck' the fuel up the pickup pipe to the pump to get rid of the air lock but apart from that it was no trouble, runs like a charm (if not a bit noisy without the exhaust!!!).

Bad (ish) news: we had to physically short the earth side of the fuel pump switching circuit (where the black/grey wire is connected) to an earthing point. The relay wouldn't trip, meaning it wouldn't start the fuel pump, otherwise.

It's quite clear that the ECU is in working order, or the engine obviously wouldn't run! All sensors/injectors/etc seem to be working perfectly so by all accounts the ECU doesn't seem to NEED the current from the black/grey wire (terminal 20 on the ECU, page 11, for those of you with wiring diagrams).

I can get the car running, and it moves under its own power, so I could in theory leave the fuel pump relay 'hot wired' to earth, bypassing the black/grey wire altogether. But I'm not happy about this solution, something must be up.

*** What function of the engine management system would switch the grey+black to earth and why isn't it working in this case? ***
_________________
Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations

Admin · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:21 pm Post subject:

Hi

I would have to check with the wiring diagrams, but doesn't the car only run the fuel pump when the engine is turning over. From memory the pump is switched on when the AFM moves

All the best

Keith

Mixsynth · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:45 pm Post subject:

Hi Keith

This seems possible and we haven't tested for this yet. Have you any idea which page of the wiring diagrams would illustrate this?
_________________
Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations

Admin · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:15 pm Post subject:

Hi

Will have to crwl through it. However also check the 16V trouble shooting guide. One thing to try is to open the AFM flap with the ignition on and see if that triggers the fuel pump

All the best

Keith

Mixsynth · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:54 pm Post subject:

I'll check the AFM with ignition on as you say.

Where is the 16V troubleshooting guide though?
_________________
Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations

Admin · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 5:21 pm Post subject:

Hi

Think it is on the CD with the manuals from the microfiche

All the best

Keith

Mixsynth · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:30 pm Post subject:

Well, bugg3red if I know why it didn't work the first time, but now it starts without the short to ground!! Thanks Keith, that's just about everything sorted! Very Happy

The battery wasn't fully charged up before, probably why it wasn't working when we tried turning it over previously.

Anyway it runs like an absolute charm now, as it's supposed to. Another 16v conversion is waiting to hit the road...

(I'd still be keen to know of any near-to-east-anglia exhaust mid-section stockists, EXCEPT AlfaShop, though!)
_________________
Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations

lesthegringo · Alfasud Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Posts: 97

I have exactly the same problem, except that even with a bettery that turns the engine over reasonably well I can't get the relay to kick in.

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the earth connection of the ECU (and by the way I have tried two ECU's so that can't be the direct reason)

I have also 'hot wired' the relay so as to get the pump running, but there must be a simpler way. I'm going to try the blink code do-dah on Scott Sander's site to see if it gives any error codes.

Any experience or further help or information very gratefully received. I'm reasonably proficient with the mechanical side of these things, but the electronics leave me dead. That's why I went for the aftermarket injection system on my 16V Sprint, it's a simple system that's got less spaghetti.

oh well

Les

Admin · Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:33 pm Post subject:

Hi

Suspect the relay is triggered from the a switch in the afm, but triggered through the ECU. The fuel pump relay seems to get its feed from pin 20 of the ECU connector.

All the best

Keith