Alfa Pages

Errol

Hey all. The other day me and a mate went for a drive through some very nice twisties north of sydney. He had a stock auto E46 BMW 323ci. Right, lets see what the alfa can do with it in the twisties. Front wheel vs Rear wheel. I have lowered suspension and slightly wider tyres than stock. We went through about 10km of twisties, and I couldnt really out run him..made some speed through the corners but damn front wheel drive just wants to understeer. Tried my best, but I knew rear-wheel drive was going to prevail Very Happy

It wasnt that easy for the BMW, but in the end he could get me through the corners Sad

Time to buy me a GTV6.... Wink

_________________
91 Alfa Romeo 33 16v * SOLD*
Lowered 45mm
15 x 7 inch advanti wheels
Falken 195 low profile
K&N Pod filter
Cannon 2inch exhaust from cat-back with 3inch tip.

Eddie W · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:50 pm Post subject:

Hi Errol
Interesting test. Acouple of months back I was pushed by an XR8 falcon through a windy stretch of road. I was in my 1500 with ordinary 185/14s and all I could see in my mirror was his damned head, he was so close. However at the end is downhill corner with a 40k sign on it, I managed it at 115k and lo and behold I can see roadway between me and him. Strike 1 for the Alfa ! Razz

He kept a respectful distance after that and a big thumbs up when I stopped. Hopefully I can do better still in daughters car with the 195/50/15s and stiffer suspension although I suspect it is a mistake to go too low and too stiff as they can then start to walk off on bumps that the standard setup would eat up.
Herewith is some spring info that may be of interest:
Alfa 33 WRX STI
Wire 13.7 13.8
Dia 175 175
Coils 4.5 3
Free
Length 325 270
The ordinary WRX spring should be somewhere in between which suggests that these springs could make quite cheap front upgrades. The STI spring woul probably drop the car around 40mm which I think is a little much myself, but I guess it could be spaced 10mm. I am going to look into making the bottom pan adjustable anyway.
Regards Eddie
_________________
A LITTLE FURTHER A LITTLE FASTER

Errol · Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:02 am Post subject:

Its basically the RWD vs FWD. I mean, I have to say, bmws are fantastic handling cars. My dad has an M model. It makes when want to buy a RWD car tommorow. Oh well, at least i know that all the jap fwds stand no chance against me Twisted Evil

_________________
91 Alfa Romeo 33 16v * SOLD*
Lowered 45mm
15 x 7 inch advanti wheels
Falken 195 low profile
K&N Pod filter
Cannon 2inch exhaust from cat-back with 3inch tip.

James Granger · Alfa 33 Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 302

I've never encountered understeer in the 33 - it has more grip than the 147. To be honest, with the 195 tyres I'd have to be going far too fast to get understeer. It would be catastrophic!

The only real problem I have is a fuel feed problem which cuts fuel supply if I corner too hard. The car basically starts to stutter. Laughing

Pimp_Dudu · Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject:

my best mate also has a 520 bmw and we always argue on the subject rwd vs fwd...but lately ive noticed that with the wheel drive it really depends what conditions u drive your car in. it was -10 the other day here in helsinki with almoot 20cms of snow...my friend's bmw couldnt go anywhere it was all the time spinning around and going out of control..whilst my alfa managed perfectly...ive also noticed that as much as rear wheel drive is useful for fast drifting and turns, you can manage quite the same with the 33 with some fwd drift tricks such as left foot braking. I read somewhere that the 33 has "built in over steer"..i dont know exactly what that means but the 33's handling surely is one of the best there is, it even beats some of the newer cars ive driven.
Still i think that the ultimate is 4wd...but of course also more expensive

gritsop · Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:58 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Pimp_Dudu I totally agree with you about the handling of Alfa 33.
10 days ago we also had very severe snowfall here in Athens and since I am working in mountain in a Hotel-Casino Resort the snowfall was much worse compared with the suburbs. Indeed Alfa could run with no snow chains at a constant speed of 20 kms , 2nd gear and the accelerator pedal just being pressed with no violent action on it. There was NO understeer the car was gripped (to the extent that snow/ice permits Wink

) and by no way I encountered sad or dangerous situations.
At the same time some Renault 19's , some Japanese coffee mixers and some Jeep type Mercedes ML's were struggling to move...
The Renault was hit by the Merc ML (4wd and it was slipping like snow hockey Laughing

) and some Toyotas were left for over 4 days just waitning for the sun to melt the snow and ice...

What I have to admitt is that when the italians were making cars all the others were (re)inventing the wheel Cool

Finally did anyone see the new Lancia Fulvia in Lancia's website? The car is marvellous Shocked

Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

Errol · Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:32 pm Post subject:

Guest · Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:22 am Post subject:

Unless it is the E30 323 which may be though fight. Other wise the 33 should be leading in twisties.

Sergio · Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:22 am Post subject:

Serpent. · Guest

The only times I get understeer on a 33 is when I commit a driving mistake. The 33 IS designed for oversteer. Driven the 147 and it had a similar oversteer characteristic at high speed sweepers(180km/h) but 147 seems more disciplined. Disciplined does not mean faster.

Do not lift-off around corners!!! Unless you are a pro... or your wife just ran away.

Pimp_Dudu · Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject:

Guest · Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:29 am Post subject:

[quote="Pimp_Dudu"]

Guest · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:46 am Post subject:

James Granger · Alfa 33 Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 302

James Granger · Alfa 33 Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 302

Roberto H · Alfa Arna Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 1

A 33 losing out to an E46 on the road? I doubt it. It is one the few FWDs which have a neutral/oversteer bias. (Frankly, I cant think of anything else which does) Compared to the E46, it is underpowered. So you need to drive on the momentum and keep the racing line neat.

My ohter car is a 205GTI. Great car though it is, it still understeers more than the 33. My only critique of the 33's handling is torque steer in 2nd gear corners.

The bottom line is, the E46 is too heavy. Had it been an E30...

Pimp_Dudu · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:59 pm Post subject:

have any of u guys ever raced with a rwd on ice???or atleast on a more slippery road....there is no over steer AT ALL.....u cant make turns with over 20-30 km/h. A rwd car can at least be to some degree controlled but not the 33....it keeps on going into understeer...even though i have got tendencies to oversteer with my 33 on ice, but usually its because i either braked a bit before the turn or the road was somehow uneven.

Guest · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:19 pm Post subject:

Pimp_Dudu · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:37 pm Post subject:

p4 is 4wd....we're talkin bout fwd...id love to get a p4...

Dave_NZ · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:05 am Post subject:

pimp_dudu, i took my car up a ski field access roas (loose gravel) and it had a tendancy to oversteer which was beautiful. All i had to do was go into the corner and lift off slightly and then the tail came round nicely. u will never get oversteer if u put ur foot down or accelerate INTO the corner. just lift off and then get back on the gas to drive out nice and fast. i have yet to try driving on ice.

Dave
_________________
Looking for a type 2 33QV in NL

Pimp_Dudu · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:26 am Post subject:

trust me on ice or snow u will get under steer...or then my car is just unique and it under steers...even rwd cars get under steer if the speed is too high on icy and snowy roads...now i dont know with what speed u were cornering but it sure as hell couldnt be over 50kms/h or else it would understeer

Serpent. · Guest

Hmm... this is interesting. Now we are talking about driving. Throttle does shift the weight around allowing you to decide which to come out. But you need to be near the limit of a corner to experience that, especially with good tyres.

I attemted a "scadinavian flick" sucessfully on my 33 by breaking hard into a corner . Weight is all thrown to the front and the rear sways out about 70 degrees. leave the engine break on till the rear pendulums back. Accelerate off when the car is pointed at the direction you want to go. Please be careful. I suggest you find an S bend with plenty of run off area to try this. Like a race track.

Pimp_Dudu · Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:29 pm Post subject:

wow scandinavian flick without using hand brake....pretty damn good....i think like u said at the end of the day the driver has more to do with the drift then the car itself...but i msut admit that a scandinavian flick is very very hard to do with a fwd car, actually with any car....i've been givin it a try a couple of times...but with out the hand brake it really is hard to do...but id say if u start off by practicing only fishtails then u'll soon be able to do the real flick itself...

Eddie W · Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:34 am Post subject:

Hi all
Got to add my two pennies worth to the understeer/oversteer debate.
Personally I have very, very rarely run into understeer on our cars, only on a wet road with a tightening corner and an incorrect line with too much entry speed . I have always been impressed by the 33s tendencyto tighten into a corner as you accelerate rather than run wide with understeer, just like a rear drive car does. Perhaps because I'm older I don't try hard enough any more , but I can usually double speed ratings on corners ( in the wet) and treble some in the dry,which I think is giving the 33s handling a fair work out. I have noticed a slight tendency to understeer on a trailing throttle but not under power where convential wisdom would expect it. How Alfa have achieved this is still a mystery to me and the reason that I don't want to stray too far from their original concept in search of more grip. I would like to add that I have managed to get both ends sliding at once on more than one occasion, which is quite an extraordinary balance for FWD.
Scandinavian Flick. Done this many times in my old rally Escort. The rally cars are usually set up with a rear brake bias to set this up. For a l/h corner say,you turn slightly right as you brake which sets the rear going left, and then over correct with opposite lock which starts it swinging the other way. You then pick this up with correction and power. It's a majic feeling and becomes second nature onthe loose. With FWD however, this is usually done with left foot braking which I have yet to try. If you could rig up some setup that would bypass the rear limiter valve on the 33 on demand then you could have a lot of fun . The fastest steering ratio you can get makes it a lot easier to pick up and balance the slides( the Escort was 2.25 turns lock to lock)
Regards Eddie
_________________
A LITTLE FURTHER A LITTLE FASTER

jmmoss · Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject:

If you changed your 33 for a GTV6 you would have slower acceleration and a lower top speed, not sure if it would beat a 33 through the twisties either!
_________________
Alfa 33 4c 1.5 Gold Cloverleaf 1987
with Air Conditioning