Alfa Pages

[Gary UK]

Right after blowing most of the cat honeycomb out the back of me m8's 16ver got it running as it should.

Had been run in for catiously for 250 miles (well it was running like a bag of shit anyway so over 70 wasn't an option) after head gaskets done.

First trip over 6k started running A1 took it up to 6.5k for a couple of minutes (warm of course) and throttleing back for a roundbout something let go on the left bank major clatter still power but slightly less.

I recon either hydraulic tappet gone or cam bearing shell disintirgration (they don't use a roller bearings do they, well I'll have referenec shortly). I suspect tappet as it deleoped a farty sound just (a little just) before meltdown.

Basically can I disconnect the hubs from the struts and lower engine down to access heads (as don't wish to tackle the drive shaft studs).

Any other proposed points of failure greatfully recieved.

And as the poor bloke has just spent the best part of £900 getting the heads gakets done and bonnet respay etc. feel it's time the job is sorted properly. Plus suds and 8v'ers worth their salt are a thing of the past getting so I may have to dispel my fear of the dreaded 16v.

Basically it is this car that has put me off 16v'ers (and I am wrong it was the last 33 imported into the uk) The guy (Brian) bought it from new (he drove me old 1.5ti sud and was smitten and via a mk2 1.78v he arrived at this money pit it's a real Friday teatime engine. It's got 50k on the clock and enough reciepts in the boot to give it a 0-60 of 10.5s

ps it's been sat for getting on for a year

And it only cranks v. slowly when hot and won't start is this the relay power fix thing??

[Matt C]

I doubt it's a tappet, if a tappet fails it's only going to make a very loud tapping noise, a hydro one of course.
if a bearing self destructed it's not really going to effect the perforamnce unless the cam shaft snapped in the process, which will happen if your missing a bearing. The only way i can see that happening is if the incorrct bearing was matched to the journal of the camshaft, these bearings are tunnel bored so they must be put in the correct order. to test for this when installing cam the cam should turn freely unless it's engaging a valve which poses resistance.

It may have dropped a valve? This would explain the chatter and power lose and "farty" noise.
could be a number of things. just drop of the rocker cover and have a look. I would advice strongly not to turn an engine over which has gone Crunch.

Struts..
Don't disconnect the hubs from the struts, thats to much work
just drop both struts with the engine, undo the couple of bolts from the top and down she goes. be sure to have a jack under the hub when doing so.
I know how you feel about those damn bolts on those drive shafts

hope thats of some help

Matt C
_________________
Molto Veloce!

[Gary UK]

Matt u r a singular genius of course three nuts at the top DUR!!

I take it leave the rear mount on as a fulcrum? anything that needs removing (apart from mounts) just for an inspection of head. Will the gearlever linkages need disconnecting?

[Admin]

Hi

Taking the engine out of the P4 I disconnected the drive shaft inner bolts (no problems) but left the prop shaft connected and left the gearbox in place.

Tend to agree that it is not likely to be a tappet. However I did once have one go on an 8V engine with the old screw adjusters. The adjuster broke up so that you could adjust it with your fingers, so the valve wasnt opening. Engine ran but missing power and used to sneeze back through the carb on that cylinder

Dont think there are any seperate bearings for the cams, merely they are bored in the heads. Possible the camshaft caps have been mixed up.

My guess would be the cam timing is out a tooth or more, and that the engine has managed to clip a valve at high revs

All the best

Keith

[Gary UK]

I hope you are not right Keith in my opion the engine is still too balanced for this to have happened and it knocks intermittently at low revs (ticks over smoothly at about 850 rpm) and the amount of clatter rises and falls as you increase revs like there is play in a bearing but under load this play is lost. Or a sticking valve (just hope one hasn't snapped) can u buy gasket set for a single head or are they paired?

And if this has happened Keith then the belt must have slipped (about 4.5k revs when happened) because once the cat was sorted and the engine was warm it flew up the rev range as it should have (ie as fast/faster than my 8v).and sounded sweet as a nut. Now it sounds like a bag of nuts being lightly shaken but still has 90% of power and the engine is still balanced (I know this as it had to be run gingerly for about 1.5 miles home or be towed from the motorway at vast expense, I drove it as my pal said he'd alredy done enough harm to it, the humor of being hit in the leg from a 2" square lump of cat out the exhaust had been lost by this point). The noise thinking about it screams of a dodgey crank bearing but is left bank located.

I surmise that the fix it Gaj has got shite into the oilways and a bearing has run dry. Anyone know how much cams are roughly or how much a journal recut is (if possible are oversized shells available or is it a case of some engines being factory fitted with oversized ones dependant on how the cam's machined out originally)

Finaly are the head cover studs torx, hexagonal or some queer alfa size or spline.

The plus side is that I'm going to dispel my fear of the 16v'ers by the usual route of destrucion - reconstruction and I don't have to pay for the parts and I'll get the missus of me back as my beloved bootless 33 out the front of the house can be crushed as I have an ALfa to tinker with.

[Admin]

Hi

Mmm, not so sure then. If anything serious were wrong then you would loose more than 10% of the power

One thing worth a try. Bikes often sound really bad if the carb are far out of balance. Could the throttle bodies be way out? Maybe the adjuster screw is out. Probably not likely but clutching at straws for you here! Hopefully something simple such as a bearing cap not tightened correctly

Doubt the cam bearings can be replaced. From memory there isnt a seperate bearing. The head bolts are a 12 pointed star. A torx bit will do it, but I dont think it is quite the right tool

All the best

Keith

[Scott Sander]

I had one of the links with the plastic ends split on me. That would throw the sync of the throttle bodies out. Just a thought
_________________
Scott Sander
'91 Alfa 33 Boxer 16V Monza - Awesome
http://www.sanderfamily.com

[Matt C]

Try not to judge the engine to much by how smooth it is.
These engine will run rather smooth on only 3 cylinders, pull a lead off and see for yourself.
Remember a 16v has 2 intake valves, losing 1 valve isn't going to make the engine run like a complete dog and wont be as noticable as an 8v losing a valve.

Personally i remove the engine and gearbox all at once, doesn't take very long at all, BUT i have the tools and it's what i do all day

The bolts on the inner hubs are soft and luv to strip out that hex, use nothing else but the finest hex/alan key, or bit to remove these or you will be appling the good old cold chisel and Knockometer(hammer)

You can easily remove the rocker cover in stat, however what your doing is a much better idea because you can examine the problem and have more access
_________________
Molto Veloce!

[Gary UK]

I have a full torx/hex/spline(mainly queer Ford ones) set for use with socket wrench or 10mm spanner so I'll try and remove head cover with engine in car 1st (coz if the cam belt has slipped the fix it Gaj can take the repair on his toes). Just hope the torx key that fits is one of the short(2cm) and not the long(4.5cm) ones (this does not depend on diameter funnily enough and some are duplicated?? Crazy Americans!!).

Matt have u ever heard of snap-on are they a good make still even with quality hex keys I still don't wan't to tackle the drive-shaft studs ever again if possible(probably cheap key to blame but me knuckles won't let me again), call me a Kittens with no pit (if I could get my 4' lever bar under I would, you just blow gently on the end and hey presto undone!!)

[Admin]

Hi

Think the rocker cover bolts are just 10mm headed bolts. It is the actual head bolts that are Torx ish bolts. Alfa doa version of the special tool for removing the heads with the 12 splines

All the best

Keith

[Matt C]

mostly i have Snapon, Stahlwille, Beta and Hazet tools. Kind of buy the best they each have to offer. costs an arm and a leg though

Are you using jack stands to get the car off the ground?
A good 3/8 8inch breaker bar makes short work cracking the bolts and then tackle them with an air ratchet. Luv those pneumatic tools
even a cordless drill with a socket adaptor will eat them for breakfast (only once you have cracket them!) You kind of wonder what you were thinking once you discover the power of electricity and Air Not to mention the Rattle Gun!!! I beleive ppl change once they have a Rattle Gun in their hands, turn Evil even it's all a worry.
Nothing like cracking your hand with all your weight behind it on a nice piece of sharp cold steel!

I hate it when the Snapon truck and Tool vans turn up at work selling their gear..... You just cant help yourself..you end up purchasing tools you may only ever use once, But hey you have it so yer, well thats what i keep telling myself
_________________
Molto Veloce!

[Admin]

Homer Simpson Voice

Mmmmm

Tooolllsss

Mmmm

Snap On stuff in the UK is really expensive as they are mainly aiming at the trade and selling with long term credit agreements. Stuff like Facom, Britool and Beta seem to be cheaper and more readily available for non trade users

All the best

Keith[/i]

[Gary UK]

I got a 5 tray box with sockets spanners and assorted stuff (quite incomplete) from an auction for £150. The stuff that was missing was not replaced with snap-on as I found out how much they cost new. But it looks the part having a tray box with the logo on!! A rough estimate of the cost of the stuff I got had I bought it new would be about ten times what I paid 2nd hand.

The thing I really notice with the snap-on stuff is the C spanners don't flex and hence you don't round bolt heads.

Most of the replacement stuff was eithe King Dick (don't you just love the name) and Sealey(have no Idea as to their quality though have found no problems) picked up from tool auctions.

And as you say Keith mmmmmm tooools.

And Matt you are making me jealous, I want a rattle gun too (I'm sure the good lady won't mind the compressor in the kitchen, I'll tell her it's for drying the washing up)

[Gary UK]

re. Head Suds

I have all the way up in 12 point torx to M12 is this too small?? Though I do have a single M20 (Ford Head studs). Am I in luck??

I have all the way up to T60 (six pointed)

[Admin]

Hi

From memory I think a T55 is right (ish). Will check in a bit

All the best

Keith