Alfa Pages

gritsop · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:45 am Post subject: Noisy fuel pump

Hi,

It has been quite some time that I hear the fuel pump working quite noisy.I had the fuel filter replaced some months ago and the amount of noise (hears like a bee) was reduced noticably.
However now I feel that the noise is back again - I can hear the fuel pump even when i'm sitting in the driver's seat, also I can feel vibration of the hose which goes towards the tank when I touch it.

The noise and the vibration occur no matter if I'm low or full on fuel; also i can hear when idle that the pump has bursts of noise every now and then (sudden increase of noise and then dissapearing)

Anyway, is THAT amount of noise and vibration normal ? My spare parts dealer says that the pump is warning me that it is the end of it's life. I should have the pump replaced and the fuel tank removed in order to be cleaned from rust and dirt inside because if I put a new pump without cleaning the tank it would surely render the new pump inoperative soon enough.

Any help is much appreciated.

Regards
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

Eddie W · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 12:19 pm Post subject:

Hi Gritsop, sounds like the pump is bypassing somewhere and that could be in the pump itself Crying or Very sad

Best of luck.
Regards Eddie
_________________
A LITTLE FURTHER A LITTLE FASTER

RFlower · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject:

My pump just started making the same noise 2 days ago, but not all the time.

The noise continues if I park with the engine idling. If I stop and restart the engine the noise goes away.

My first guess was faulty pressure switch, bypass, or pressure regulator, but all I can find on the piping & wiring diagram in the Drivers' Handbook is a pressure regulator.

I thought there is a pressure switch because the pump runs about 1 second, then stops, when the ignition is switched on, but maybe this is just controlled by a timer, to give initial fuel pressure.

I think the most likely cause is the pressure regulator, mainly because I may have a spare, and don't want to have to buy a new pump!

Has anyone repaired the pump?
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)

gritsop · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 9:06 pm Post subject:

Hi,

RFlower · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject:

Regulator not yet replaced or tested, will let you know.
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)

BILL · Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 11:28 am Post subject:

Hi,
last July i asked at a Bosch dealer/repair shop the pump costs 150Euro.

gritsop · Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:45 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Dick, thanx you for your info,
Bill, I also checked with my AR supplier and the Bosch pump costs 140Euro

Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

ZeNiTh-PbArM · Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: re : noisy fuel pump

hi!

the problem with too noisy a fuel pump is probably due to some crud in the circuit, which is confirmed by the noise reduction when changing the filter.
did you keep the old filter? if yes, just open it and see if it was clogged, and what color it was inside.
if the color inside is brown, don't search for long, it's your tank rusting from the inside.
that's what happened on mine, have a look at : http://alfaimola.free.fr/technique/carburant/reservoir/index.html
i had more than 1kg of rust in the tank (which was so rusted that there were a few holes in the bottom!) when you start the car, the fuel is drain throuch the suction pipe and its sock filter. the fuel flows through the filter but the crud stays on it, after a few minutes it is blocked and the pump can't draw enough fuel, it starves, heats, and makes noise. when you stop the engine, the crud falls back to the bottom of the tank and when you restart the car, everything seems normal for a few minutes.
you can check the fuel pressure to be sure the regulator is ok ( see : http://alfaimola.free.fr/technique/carburant/pression/index.html ) but crud clogging the pipe wont cause any pressure symptoms until the pump sarts to die.
besides, you're lucky since a fuel pump here in france costs nothing less than 180 euros (and more than 300 at the alfa dealer)...but don't change the fuel pump before solving the problem!

regards,
zp

gritsop · Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 12:30 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Yes I cut the old fuel filter with a saw and what I found inside was brown deposit of probably rust which felt like toothpaste in its touch. The paper element inside was fully covered and the walls of the metal cylinder had a
light brown tone of the deposit. Confused

For sure thanx a lot for the valuable info - I 'll have the tank taken away and cleaned thoroughly and then I'll see if the pump needs replacing.
I hope that it has not been that much stretched so that I 'll get away with it.

Anyway I 'll have it repaired and I'll let you know with the results.

Best regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

Marcin · Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 6:55 am Post subject:

Hi Zp,

did you replace your rusted tank, or did you fix it one way or the other? Actually I still hope that there is a plastic fuel tank, that would fit to the 33. That would solve the rust problem for good!

Cheers,

Marcin

gritsop · Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:25 am Post subject:

Hi,

Marcin, I have asked for plastic tank under a quick research but the answer was negative.

The bad thing about the metal tank is not only rust but also approximately 300€ Confused

Regards from Greece,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

ZeNiTh-PbArM · Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:11 pm Post subject: re : tank

hi!

unfortunately, my tank was damaged beyond repair : the bottom had become very thin and was literally falling apart.
i wasn't able to find a plastic replacement for the fuel tank, so down to the alfa dealer i went, and i bought a brand new tank for 160 euro.
i was hesitating to paint the innards of the tank with a special epoxy paint to prevent the rust from reappearing, but i was in a hurry (needed the car badly to drive to work instead of the 30km bicycle ride) and refitted the new tank "as is". i just fill 'er up regularly so the tank never gets empty. that way, no rust will ever come back...at least i hope!

regards,
zp

gritsop · Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 9:11 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Well I had arranged for Thursday a visit to the mechanic to clean the tank but my beloved Alfa just could not wait 30 more hours.

Just after returning from work the fuel tank started droping the gas out from its lowest part Embarassed

I observed it when I parked the cat in my house's garage because of the smell and the stain on the floor. I swept the bottom of the tank with kitchen paper and the color was guess brown.
So rust did its wonder Exclamation

The facts show that tomorrow morning I start searching for tank and prices and it's gonna be a long day.

There is also another side of the story since in the last two refils I had the car consuming more fuel than normal.I always write down the refils and I have estimated more or less the consumption.About 200 kms gas has gone probably spilling on the road Confused

probably in much less quantities campared to today when I filled a container of 1lt in 30min Exclamation

Anyway, write you soon the results. Crying or Very sad

Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

RFlower · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 7:00 pm Post subject:

When you replace the fuel tank note that the securing straps are different lengths. LHS has 3 holes punched in at the back, RHS has 2 holes.
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)

gritsop · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 7:52 pm Post subject:

Hi,

After a long day, finally everything's now in place. In about an hour me and my father removed the tank quite easily; we opened the gauge and we found inside about 1cm thick rust and debris. (ZP I now quote on your words!). The small filter was quite clean but I judge that it would habe been blocked by all the dirt inside.

Instead of buying the new one, a very good idea actually was to repair it at the point if this was acceptable. So, we went to a radiator/tank mechanic who cleaned it with a special fluid (about half bucket of dirt came out) and he repaired the hole by soldering it.In addition he opened a hole of about 1cm where he placed groove and bolt in order to be capable to flush the tank when the need arises.

We also had replaced every rubber fuel hose because most of them were pretty worn-out.

So the work was done with 50 Euros cost. In addition if the tank again has problems then I'll consider for buying a new one; for the time being I hope that it is ok.

The next step will be the opening of the fuel pump so that inspection will be done.It still does this annoying noise;if inspection shows corruption then it will be replaced.

When the previous step is over then I'll buy a new fuel filter so that I now have a completely clean fuel system (I had replaced it 5000kms ago... Mad

)

Anyway I'm now ready till the next problem arises... Cool

Dick: I did not see the straps having different lengths, nor I saw three holes... strange. Question

Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

gritsop · Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 6:15 am Post subject:

Hi,

Well after all, those Alfas do have a mind of their own...
24 hours were enough for the fuel tank to start again leaking from another small rusty hole that appeared.
Seems that the tank became a very very rusty bucket.
So, me and my father went to our AR dealer and bought a new one for 235Euros.

Now it is installed and I hope that it will last another 12 years... as it is the third one in it life. The first one failed within the first year when a metal piece broke and it was making knocking sounds when braking.

Regards
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

ZeNiTh-PbArM · Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 6:17 pm Post subject: re : fuel pump

hi!

i can see you're going through the same trouble i did ! if your tank has rusted from the inside, it's no use cleaning it. the least you can do is put some epoxy paint in it to "glue" the rust and provide an epoxy coating to prevent rust from attacking the metal further. but once the damage is done, the new fuel tank is something you can't avoid...
concerning the fuel pump, if you still have the original weber-marelli unit (if your car is weber fuel system, i heard there are 1351 cm3 ie fitted with bosch systems) , you can have a glance at the innards of the pump at : http://alfaimola.free.fr/technique/carburant/photos%20pompe/index.html
the fuel pump is not designed to be opened, nor are parts available. if it's worn inside, junk it and buy a new one. the fuel pump provided as spare part by alfa romeo for 33 1.3ie with weber-marelli injection system is a bosch part, number 0 580 464 048 . it's cheaper at a bosch dealer (180€) than at an alfa dealer (300€).
there is a small grid filter at the inlet of the fuel pump, inside the aluminium casing. perhaps this filter is blocked and it is possible to clean/rinse it with petrol, then your car works fine again? it won't hurt to change your fuel filter anyway.
i wish you good luck with the troubleshooting of your fuel circuitry!

regards,
zp

gritsop · Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Thank you for the important info! Actually my alfa is a 1.4IE with Bosch electrical system. I plan to open the fuel pump so that I check the inside - if it is not worthy dealing then I'll replace it.
I have been quoted that it costs 113€ - 140€. (a Bosch part number not AR)

Anyway as soon as I finish dealing with the pump I 'll replace at last the fuel filter so that everything's new and trouble free in the fuel system.

Once again thank you a lot.

Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

gritsop · Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:31 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Well the second phase of the maintenance of the fuel system was today complete. The fuel pump was dismantled with great care and inside was found some black dust which is probably dirt from those 12 years of petrol.
Zenith Pbarm was right; in the inlet of the pump there is a small filter which I wouldn't say it was clogged. It had some dirt in the edges but probably as the fuel was running during the dismantling and moving around , it probably got out of the way.
The rotor is in good condition, the brushes also and what my father and I did was to clean the rotor with fine sandpaper which turned it to new!
Also we cleaned the contacts located in the magnets of the tube and also the tube itself.
Then we fitted the pump back, gave her a little gas so that it can suck liquid instead of air and then everything 's OK.
I let her run till 80C and the pump is now very smoothly running, the noise has disappeared by a roughly 60% and it sounds great.
Hope it lasts pretty much (cross fingers) Laughing

Probably I won't replace the fuel filter since the one on the car is new (5000kms)

Anyway, thank you all guys for the help!Much appreciated.
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

ZeNiTh-PbArM · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:32 pm Post subject: re : fuel pump

hi,

glad to hear the problem was solved. that's some big money saved on a new fuel pump!
did you note the Bosch reference number on the casing of the pump? that would be interesting.
don't hesitate to replace your filter, perhaps in only a few thousand kilometers, because it could have been prematurely clogged due to the rudt debris coming from the tank.

regards, and happy 33 drive,
zp

gritsop · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:56 pm Post subject:

Hi,

No unfortunatelly it did not even come to my mind to look at the numbers on the pump. Anyway I 'll replace the filter when the car reaches 90000kms (i'm now in 85000kms) in order to be in the safe side.

Thank you a lot for your feedback.

Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

BILL · Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:52 pm Post subject:

I was expecting the pump to stop working but the tank decided to come first.Yestarday i went for an oil change and i noticed some moisture in the lower part.Clean it (looked like it was oil) just to find it had moisture again.The hole is very small (like its made from a needle) and it is not dripping just making moisture .The mechanic had a used one and told to go there tomorow to make the swap.He is not sure if all the tanks are the same (BOSCHE & IAW MM) so he will ask a AR dealer to be absolutly sure that there will be no problem.At least i hope the 33 will be ok for the weekend ,its my birthday Sunday Very Happy

,imagine not having a car Evil or Very Mad

.

gritsop · Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:06 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Bill it looks like the 33's were born from the same mother ... Wink

The same happened to me - I had seen moisture and dirt which turned out to be the leaking point.

It is good to buy a new one without having problems again since these tanks are very prone to rust. In addition the tanks are different for the BOSCH and the Marelli IAW system.
I had paid for mine (Bosch) 235€ for new.

Have a nice birthday and I 'll call you to arrange the final details for the Sunday 27th June.

Edit: It would be a good idea to remove the pump and clean its input as there is a small fliter that gets stuck with dirt - apply plenty of fuel, shake it around and dirt will come out - Notice that after this the pump will sound much less than it did. Wink

Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop

BILL · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:59 pm Post subject:

The new tank (used actually) is in place .No problem so far.I was thinking of putting a small plastic fuel filter(like the ones the non injection cars had) betwen the fuel hose that comes from the tank and the pump.Will that work or the fuel will start leaking in the road?

RFlower · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:45 pm Post subject:

There should already be a coarse filter in the tank (looks like a small plastic bag around the outlet pipe). I don't think it's a good idea to put a small filter before the pump inlet, as it might cause too much restriction.

Maybe a bowl type filter with a fairly coarse cleanable element would be a good idea, if you can find somewhere to mount it where it won't get damaged and leak.
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)