Alfa Pages Forum Index Alfa Pages
A forum for help with the Alfasud And Alfa 33
 

Fitting Larger brakes
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Alfa Pages Forum Index -> Motorsport, Racing & Trackdays
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Edward
Alfa 33


Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 307
Location: Bristol

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:55 am    Post subject: Fitting Larger brakes Reply with quote

Can you tell me, if I am fitting larger calipers - say some four pot brembos - do I need to alter the size of the master cylinder to compensate for the increased amount of fluid that is being pumped into the caliper - or am I missing the point somewhere?? I saw the 2 master cylinder picture on AM motorsport site but is this necessary, is it even related to this issue or is it to avoid using a brake bias valve onto the back wheels and effectively doing that modification properly. In my mind, which can be small at times, if the calipers are bigger in the 'workings' involved i.e. just getting the fluid to push 4 pistons, will I have sufficient capacity in a standard 33 master cylinder??

Can someone also possibly throw some light onto the AHM modification and explain what this is for and could one do it oneself if it was proved to be required.
_________________
The faster the better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sportston
Alfasud


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Lowestoft, suffolk

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: check out other post Reply with quote

there is another post on this website that may be of interest to you re: uprating calipers and discs etc. Do a search using the word "holden" and it should come up. I'd be interested to know more about this myself. I am waiting for parts to uprate my brakes with bigger calipers etc. and will let you know how it turns out when I get around to doing it.
cheerio
tomb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rich B
Alfa 33


Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 386
Location: Southampton

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to do my brakes too - just got some 155v6 calipers. I've been told that I will need to fit the 155v6 master cylinder too as the 33 one is not of sufficient capcity/or is too weedy.

Does anyone know where and how I can get some adaptor plates made up to mount the calipers? I'll be using 155v6 discs (284mm diameter I think)

Thanks

Rich
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sportston
Alfasud


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Lowestoft, suffolk

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: caliper mounts Reply with quote

somewhere else on this site matt stilton said he had got some specially made up by a company called Hispec. The topic is "bigger brakes" and it is in the racing forum. I have decided to get a set of Holden calipers and mitsubishi discs from australia. I'll let you know how i get on. My next problem is to uprate the rears from drums to discs. I'm fairly sure that somewhere along the line I'll be regretting I ever started fiddling with the brakes, but its too late to back out now. Interesting to note about master cylinder from other alfa! I was contemplating taking mine off and touring the scrapyards for a heavier duty one. It all comes down to cost eventually.
bishes
tommo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hugh jinjin
Alfasud


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can enlarge the caliper piston area by about 25% and retain the standard master cylinder. Any bigger than this and the pedal travel becomes too long and a larger bore master cylinder is needed.
The easiest and cheapest way to get better brakes is to fit bigger discs and use spacers with the standard calipers and harder pads. That way the pedal feel stays the same and you don't have to bugger about trying to guess what size of master cylinder you are going to need. Remember that the master cylinder is actually 2 cylinders in 1, one for the front and one for the rear so if you change it for one from another car you may end up with too much or too little rear bias.
The 145/155 285mm discs are a good choice as they fit straight on. I used them on a trackday 33 with a set of 2 pot Brembos from a 75 and retained the standard master cylinder. The brakes were transformed.
I probably wouldn't use the Brembos again as parts for them are next to impossible to get and they are also very fat calipers and needed spacers to clear the wheels. For road or even trackday use the standard calipers would be fine. For spacers phone Hi Sec Motorsport.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sportston
Alfasud


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Lowestoft, suffolk

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: so any idea what fits? Reply with quote

your point about a master cylinder from another car is interesting. So would it be better to get a single chamber one and fit a bias adjuster? In which case what would fit, without getting a custom one made? where can u get them from?
Tchus
tomato
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hugh jinjin
Alfasud


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

forgot to explain about the twin master cylinders on ah motorsports site.
This is what is called a bias bar set up and is used to adjust the front /rear brake bias. The front and rear brakes have separate circuits each with its own master cylinder. A threaded rod with a spherical bearing in the middle joins two clevises on the ends of the master cylinder rods. the outer race of the spherical bearing is attached to the brake pedal. by turning the threaded rod the position of the pedal in relation to each master cylinder can be varied, thus varying the amount of pedal pressure applied to each cylinder. this provides a very precise adjustment method.
Have a look at the Rally Design website, under braking, where there is an article on setting them up, with pictures! which will probably explain better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rees Cees
Alfasud


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 48
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a normal master cylinder of an 33 1500 sw and use 155Q4 calipers with 284mm discs an have no problem at al so the use of a twin cylinder unit is nice but expensive and not nessesary.
The only modification is to CNC the Calipers and the part on witch it is fitted.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
sportston
Alfasud


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Lowestoft, suffolk

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: holden calipers Reply with quote

My Holden calipers have finally arrived from australia! They fit too! All that is needed are a couple of spacers or several washers to put them at the correct offset, but the holes are already in exactly the right place. As long as you don't have standard 14" rims. Next to get the bigger discs to go with them and a nice set of 15" rims.
The new calips have smart looking cooling fins on them and are large single pot sliding units. Not a bad buy for the money though. I couldn't have got a set of standard ford escort ones for any less!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Guest






PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

which model of holden?

I am preparing for q4 brakes upgrade bot i have difficulties fitting the calipers . They match exactly on one hole but the other is pain in the ass, i haven't got a clue on how to design appropriate spacer.

Can someone who has already done it take some picz of spacer.
Back to top
sportston
Alfasud


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Lowestoft, suffolk

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: My bits, your bits and VOLVO bits?! Reply with quote

Details are below. I have checked that the calipers fit but the discs have yet to arrive (Australia is a long way away). I'm not sure how easy it will be to redrill the discs to fit. But I'll let you know how I get on.
The volvo set seemed appealling but I just couldn't bring myself to associate my ALFA with the name VOLVO in any way, shape or form. It just seemed sacrilege to do so!!
With regard to spacers and bracket for the calipers that you have you may find it useful to check out the following link.

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=562_579

Here is a direct quote from member known as "kaBOOM" ;

"2 Combos I've seen:

1. Volvo 4 pot calipers, with Mazda E2200 Van Discs.

2. Holden VL Commodore Turbo Calipers with 3 Litre Mitsubishi Magna Discs

The best thing about those 2 upgrades is that the calipers bolt directly onto the standard Alfa 33 uprights. No mods required. All you have to do is get the correct sized disk with the correct offset.

I really like the idea of VL Turbo Brakes, since I've owned one of those cars, and the brakes are well, fantasic. They are (I'm told)the same brakes that where on the mid 1980's GM Corvette. Hell if those brakes can pull up a 1280 kg VL Commodore turbo (which is a rocketship of a car), they are going to have no trouble with a 910Kg Alfa 33! You also have to redrill the Magna Disks to the correct stud pattern.

The Volvo 4 Pots (off a V6 volvo of some type) are quite good, but the calipers are very heavy, resulting in lots of unsprung weight (not good). Also you have to make custom hubs up to attach the Mazda Disks." end quote.
Find this under the topic "bigger brakes" in the "racing" forum. Have i been using the "quotation marks" "too much"??hmmm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
BigAl
P4


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 2994
Location: U.K Surrey

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rees Cees
could you explain what is meant by "The only modification is to CNC the Calipers and the part on witch it is fitted." please
thanks
_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sportston
Alfasud


Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Lowestoft, suffolk

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: I think Reply with quote

I think what is meant is to cut holes and change the positioning with a milling machine. I have not any skill in this area myself, therefore cannot give you any advice here I'm afraid. I'd take the parts to an engineering firm and ask them to do the modifications. However you would need comprehensive specifications for them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
BigAl
P4


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 2994
Location: U.K Surrey

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks, i was hoping to find a mod which would bolt straight on
_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave33
Alfa Arna


Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 1
Location: Auckland New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this extremely useful contribution on the subject of brake upgrades for 33s on another site. Should save some research !!!

For the Europeans, I wonder if Holden sold their cars in Europe re-badged as Opel or Vauxhall. That's what they did with the "Vauxhall" Monaro, which is a true-blue Aussie car

Cheers
Dave33

Copy follows....



More brake options
Can confirm that one of the weak points in relation to inboard brakes is the cap screws that attach the inboard cv joints. We've seen a couple of local cars break these cap screws and consequently make a terrible mess. They were running vented discs, Volvo callipers, 170hp, so vastly increased forces on those little cap screws, but there you go.

Outboard is the way to go. And, once you have 33 front hubs and uprights, there are an interesting number of upgrade options, particularly if you're an Australian or New Zealander.

Level One:
Basic solid 33 discs and callipers.

Level Two:
Vented 33 discs and callipers from 1.7 33.

Level Three:
VL Commodore callipers and 257mm Alfa 145/146 1.7 16v vented discs. Will bolt straight on, but its better to machine 1mm of the mounting lugs to get the calliper perfectly centred over the disc. This will fit under 14 inch wheels. The discs have the standard 4x98 stud pattern.

Level Four:
VL Commodore V8 callipers and 284mm Alfa 145/146 2.0 twinspark vented discs. Again, best to machine 1mm off the mounting lugs. Will fit under 15 inch wheels, but say goodbye to your 14s. Again, discs have standard 4x98 stud pattern.

The Commodore callipers are single piston semi-floating (sliding) made mostly of aluminium, so are nice and light. I think they're the same through to VN. BIG pistons. And a Holden Commodore weighs something like 1500-1600kg, so you're adding a good deal of stopping power to your 800-900 kg Sud or Sprint. Some of us debate whether the 'level four option' is too much overkill, or maybe just the right amount of overkill.

Even later Commodore have two piston sliding callipers -- that is, two pistons on one side, slding on the other, and quite a bit heavier. Just getting a bit silly on a Sud.

The other one that we haven't tried yet in practice, but that seems to work in theory are Mazda RX7 series four callipers, again with the 284mm 145 discs. These are aluminium four pot callipers, callipers have the same bolt pattern to bolt straight on, and it looks like they won't need machining. We think that series five and six RX7 callipers would also work, and these have small and big pistons, to avoid pad taper. Very cool.

Any of these, you'll need a bigger brake master cylinder to move enough fluid. Any of the cylinders from a 75V6 or 164 V6 will bolt straight onto the vacuum servo from a 33, and are a good start. There's a rumour that some of the 164s had an even larger master cylinder, but I can't confirm which version that is yet.

Any of these front brake options, you need to increase the front brake bias, particularly if you're on race tyres. The weight transfer under braking is huge.

At the rear, you don't need to improve the brakes. For what it's worth, a 33 tubular rear axle with drums weighs the same as a Sud sheet fabricated square rear axle with discs, within a couple of hundred grams. I've started combining the lighter 33 tube axle with the lighter Sud disc brakes, which can be done, but it's only worth about 2kg, or 3kg if you find some light alloy callipers, so I'm in no great hurry to finish. And would then need a hydraulic handbrake. In the meantime, I'm sticking with 33 rear axle and drums with for handbrake.

Also, the 1.5 33 drums have a superior self adjusting mechanism to the 1.7 33 drums. This doesn't dound like much, but it makes a big difference to pedal feel. With the 1.7 33 drums, you can almost never get a good solid pedal -- it just stays squishy and never feels good. The 1.7 33 drums are slightly smaller, and therefore a few hundred grams lighter, but it's not worth it for the loses in pdeal feel. Just don't go there.

Hope all this helps.
_________________
1989 Alfa 33 1.7 QV
1 for the road
1 for the track !! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update 1st hand Very Happy
Something most of europeans will be happy to hear

Level Three: (for 14" alloys)
3.1 Calipers from Opels that had 256/24 mm ventilated discs ( brembo ref num 09.5148.20)
- Opel Astra F aka Vauxhall Astra Mk3 (1991-1998)
- Opel Calibra aka Vauxhall Calibra
- few other models (DAEWOO Lanos) that were replicas of OPEL cars.
- few other Opel models (Vectra/Cavalier?) that have same caliper mount points like our ALFA 33s (wheel/disc/hub/caliper mount/bolt)

3.2 Disc from
Alfa Romeo 164 - 257/22 disc - depth 50.7mm, 4*98 stud pattern
http://www.brembo.com/CatalogoBrembo/DetailPages/discDetail.aspx?idBU=1&idLingua=1&PartNumber=09.5215.10
or to see which cars had same disc
http://www.brembo.com/ENG/AfterMarketBrakes/Brembo+Catalogues/SearchCars.htm
and type into Brembo reference 09.5215.10

3.3 disc needs to be machined for that extra 1mm in diameter, also inner side of it will touch hub*
3.4 machined spacer around 6mm thick to move calipers more inward*
3.5 longer screws that hold caliper mounts to hub (AR33 hub has 1.5 tooth size)*

Sad
- All callipers are single piston semi-floating (sliding) made by ATE, and heavier 30-40% then original.
- You need new custom made brake hoses or brake hose adapter
- You need to mahine some parts *
- Disc opening on all callpers is for 24mm discs, mounted discs are 22mm meaning if you center disc in callipers you'll have 1mm on each side more then before/original setup for excesivly worn pads to fall out.*

* all this is not needed if you make custom disc (24mm thick) and bell for it.

Friend of mine said he will post article on AlfaOwner for details of Level 3.

How to do it, with most of steps and acompaniing pictures "Soon in theatre near you" Smile
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:00 pm    Post subject: Level 4 Reply with quote

Update 1st hand
Something most of europeans will be happy to hear

Level Four: (for 15" alloys)
4.1 Calipers from Opels that had 284/24 mm ventilated discs ( brembo ref num 09.5807.10)
OPEL Calibra 2.0i 16V Turbo 4x4 92-95
OPEL Calibra 2.5i V6 24V 93-95
VAUXHALL Calibra 2.0i 16V Turbo 4x4 92-96
VAUXHALL Calibra 2.5i V6 24V 9.92-95

4.2 Disc from
Alfa Romeo 155 Q4 - 284/22 disc - depth 43.5mm, 4*98 stud pattern
http://www.brembo.com/CatalogoBrembo/DetailPages/discDetail.aspx?idBU=1&idLingua=1&PartNumber=09.4939.10
or to see which cars had same disc
http://www.brembo.com/ENG/AfterMarketBrakes/Brembo+Catalogues/SearchCars.htm
and type into Brembo reference 09.4939.10

4.3 you need to machine caliper inner mount side that goes onto hub mount for little bit above 1mm*

- All callipers are single piston semi-floating (sliding) made by ATE, and heavier 45% then original.
- Discs are 2.2 kg heavier/each then original 16v vented
- You need new custom made brake hoses or brake hose adapter

* this is not needed if you make custom disc (24mm thick) and bell for it.

Now is the right time for you to buy used calipers from some car scrap yard.
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is link to Croatian Alfa forum, how to make level 3 upgrade with few pictures

http://alfisti.hr/forum/index.php?topic=1686.msg35752#msg35752
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same post only on English from AlfaOwner forum
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-33-sud-and-sprint/66752-how-to-upgrade-brakes-on-33-a.html
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:26 pm    Post subject: Level three - mostly AR parts Reply with quote

Level 3 - AR brand
Update for all those who dislike/hate:
- GM mark/letetrs on calipes and prefer FAL part marking
- GM brake hose block connector on Opel/Vauxhall calipers and prefer AR one (probably no need to change original brake fluid hose)
- for not having worn out indicators in GM brake pads

Receipt:
- "GM" calipers mount for same Astra GSI...(see above posts)
- calipers from Alfa 145/6 which had ventilated dics 257/22 - they fit bolt on GM caliper mounts
- brake pads from same Alfa 145/6 - there is slight difference in GM and AR brake pad shape but they can be mounted

From Left to right
AR 146 caliper,pads and mount - AR 146 caliper, pads on GM mount (yellow)



AR 146 caliper, pads on GM mount - AR 146 caliper,pads and mount


I forgot to put on retaining springs/clips before taking photos.
_________________
Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eddie_W
Alfasud


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 74
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys, chap here in NZ selling some new 257mm rotors for a 145/146 etc. i was interested for an upgrade but it appears they are solid not vented. I was surprised as I wouldn't have thought that by those models that Alfa would be using solids on the front. Anybody clarify for me?
Regards Eddie
_________________
The pop star formerly known as Eddie W
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lee
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 150
Location: Essex UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the solid discs are for the rears, my 155 uses vented up front and solid discs at the back, 145/6 will be the same.
_________________
`97 155 2.0 16v sport
`91 33 1.7 I.E
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eddie_W
Alfasud


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 74
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for that. I suspected as much.
Regards Eddie
_________________
The pop star formerly known as Eddie W
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hugh jinjin
Alfasud


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are fronts, they are for 8v boxer engined 145/146s. the 16v boxer and all twinspark cars had vents.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lee
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 150
Location: Essex UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats supprising Laughing how yesteryear Very Happy
_________________
`97 155 2.0 16v sport
`91 33 1.7 I.E
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Alfa Pages Forum Index -> Motorsport, Racing & Trackdays All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum