Alfa Pages

[evanbottcher]

Hi folks, I'm looking for advice on the best path to develop the handling of my Alfasud wanna-be-race car. We use the car for club sprints and track days here in Melbourne. The car _barely_ gets used on the road at all - really just to drive to/from the track.

I'm running 33 front suspension. Slightly stiffer springs at the moment, don't have the rates with me but nothing too dramatic. Koni yellows in the front, reds in the rear. I still have the anti-roll bar in the front. I get a fair amount of body roll at the moment and a lot of wheelspin in tight corners.

I'm thinking in the next few months I'd like to get a new set of springs wound for the car and need to work out what rates to aim for. I've heard from one very fast competitor in Australia that he's running 325lb springs on the front and 520lb springs on the rear - this sounds very very hard on the rear. Why so stiff in the rear? Is that a necessary ratio front->rear? What effect does it have?

Anti-roll bar - I'm told to definitely take it off the front, that it will reduce the amount the inside wheel will lift in tight corners. Some have moved the anti-roll bar to the rear end to stiffen it up - how does that sound?

Shocks - how firmly damped should the front be? How do you tell if it's over-damped, under-damped? What characteristic do you look for on the track to make you change shock settings?

I don't mean to sound like a nuffie - I do have some good advice locally, but there's a lot of experience on this forum and if you can help educate me that would be great!

thanks,
Evan.
_________________
http://www.trofeoalfasud.com
'77 Alfasud Ti
'69 1750 GTV

[evanbottcher]

Too broad a question??
_________________
http://www.trofeoalfasud.com
'77 Alfasud Ti
'69 1750 GTV

[Serpent33]

Hi there. I am currently preparing a 33 S1 race/occasional road car. I have heard about removing front anti-roll bar but have not personally tried it. But according to those that raced it thay claimed secs are shaved by doing so.

So this I will definately try. I know auto delta developed a rear anti roll bar for the sud but never quite tried it. Re' the shocks, I felt my car handles best when with yellow koni, is front set to hardest and rear standard(as oppose to a civic I tried, rear harder than front). This is on my S3. Of course feel free to share varying experiences.

On sweepers, I don't quite have understeer problems, but I do get this inner lift thing which causes the latter to spin more than the outer(I don't have lsd) on very tight bends. Hope you have more to share. I am quite keen to win the <84' make race. Cheers.
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Each time I speed I say, "Dear lord, make me fast and accurate..."

[richard33]

Hi, I have a couple of race 33s that I compete in the Alfa Romeo Championship here in the UK. Both are Class F cars - basically standard engine/body. Both are stiffly sprung and one had had the anti-roll removed when I bought it and the other I removed the a/r bar (in the paddock at Silverstone!) recently. There was no major change to the handling characteristics - perhaps just a hint less inner wheel lifting in sharp corners. My main aim was weight reduction, and it does save around 6kg with no drawbacks.
The other tweek you may wish to try involves tyre pressures. Until recently, I had been running fairly a conventional front to rear ratio on both 33s and also a Sud. My fellow competitors, a friendly bunch, recommended that I try increasing the rear pressures to around 30psi (fronts at about 26psi). This seemed like madness, as the normal predominant characteristic is understeer.However, they explained that getting the rear so stiff increased it's tendency to move about and this tended to neutralise the understeer. It certainly worked for me, as I felt happier in the car and my lap times improved accordingly. Could be worth a try

[Edward]

Richard,

That sounds very interesting - as I am always looking for ways of reducing weight in my 33 track car. It would make you wonder why roll bars are needed in the first place, I can only imagine that they would reduce body roll on normally sprung cars, but if yours are already quite stiff then the roll bar is not really doing anything, would you agree??

Edward.

PS, where abouts in Somerset are you?

PPS, I don't suppose you are going to the alfa track day this year, it is fully booked and I am trying somehow to find a way to get a ticket / entry.
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The faster the better.

[evanbottcher]

richard33 - on what type of tyres do you run 26psi on the fronts? We run bridgestone road tyres (potenza G3s), and I've always run them very high around the high-30s cold up to 40psi hot. Haven't been sure what to try to improve traction/wear on these. Any thoughts?
_________________
http://www.trofeoalfasud.com
'77 Alfasud Ti
'69 1750 GTV

[richard33]

Apologies Edward for late reply - bit I've not been on the site for a while.

For the road the antiroll bars are there primary for chassis tuning, to ensure safe handling characteristics for Mr. Average. For racing the situation is different. The spring rates are so high, and the body so low, the suspension movement is very small - accordingly, anti-roll bars, even thick ones, have minimal effect. On my cars, the spring rates are so high that there is no detectable movement when you push down hard on the body ! Taking off the a/r bars had no real effect on the handling.

As far as tyres are concerned, in the Alfa Championship we run a Dunlop Formula R Control Road Legal tyre: D98J or 01J - from MSA list 1B. This likely to change next year - mainly because they cost a bloody fortune, and Dunlop are supposed to be a Series sponsor! Toyo 888s look to be favourite. I have also run other tyres in other races, like Michelin Formula Renault slicks and wets(fronts), which are plentiful, cheap, grip like s**t to a blanket and last amazingly well. I have run these all at 26psi front/30 or 31 rear and found the balance to be about right. The key is to get the front to rear tyre temperatures as close as possible. After the race, if the tyres are fully up to temperature, they should just be touchable by hand - a crude but effective measure !
My last race, a couple of weeks ago, was to try out the BRSCC LMA Eurosaloon championship at their last round at Silverstone.Before the race, I didn't have high hopes, as I run a production 1.7engine and weigh in at 935Kg, compared to a class min. of 675Kg ! In the event, there were 7 cars in the class and I finished up winning- so I can't complain! If you want to see a couple of laps, go to:
http://www.otto-bock.co.uk/html/silverStartandAlmostEnd.wmv
I'm in the only Alfa - a blue/green S2, just in front of the camera car until lap two when he gets a surprise !

[evanbottcher]

Cool thanks for the info Richard. I'll try messing with pressures a bit more, I've gone up and down with pressures front and rear but never gone higher at the rear. I find the higher pressures on the rear does make it a lot more 'skatey' this might actually be useful to counter understeer.

I'm preparing for a 6-hour relay race next weekend, after much thinking about recent performance have decided to tighten up the front and rear dampers a fair bit - fronts koni yellows now at maximum setting, rears koni reds now at about 3/4. I've detached the front antiroll bar also which has helped heaps with traction exiting tight corners but has made the car feel a bit unstable in some parts of the track. The springs are quite hard, custom-built to suit but I didn't have enough stiffness in the dampers to suit, without the roll bar I think this has become much more apparent. Should be interesting to see what difference adjusting them makes on the track.

Your springs must be seriously hard to cancel out all effect of removing the anti-roll bar. I guess when I push down on my car I do see a small amount of suspension travel (a few mm) not as stiff as yours then. I'd like to get another set wound stiffer, but do need to drive the car to and from the track at the moment.

Great in-car video - thanks for sharing!
_________________
http://www.trofeoalfasud.com
'77 Alfasud Ti
'69 1750 GTV

[Evan]

Evan,
Try my 33 at phillip island in Dec if you are going and I'll get you the set up I am using currently, or give me a call the number is on the Vic alfa club site I believe.
Andrew Bose
Melbourne