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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

I set off for work from Brighton to Leatherhead a little early so I could take my coil to distributor HT lead back to my local alfa garage in Horley and have a chat with a friend of mine who is a mechanic at the same garage.
After our chat I continued my journey to work and after changing from 4th to 5th I noticed a loss in power. I came to a stop, just, as the brakes seemed spongy and the car had stalled. So I tried to start it and noticed that the cranking sound had that familiar sound as if only firing on one bank and there was the smell of unburnt fuel. I was convinced that the cam belt had gone but didn’t want to believe it. I called my friend up and asked if he could bring a 10mm spanner so I could take the cam cover off and take a peek at the cam belt.
He had just finished replacing a part on his car when I left him and so he took his car for a road test and came to my aid.
In the time he was on his way I had ordered a taxi, asked the pub if I can leave my car in the car park and called work to say I was going to be late. The taxi driver and my friend turned up at the same time, we undid the 1 top cam cover bolt I left in when I tried to check the cam timings before and yup the N/S belt had snapped.
I’m just going to rant here and get this off my chest, so I apologise beforehand.
I’d like to blame the garage for not supplying my cam pulleys in time but it’s their Italian suppliers fault, no, its me for not changing them in time.

I thanked my friend, got in the taxi and got to work 30 mins late. Now I haven’t got a taxi in years and I was shocked at the price, from Horley to Leatherhead, a distance of 13.6 miles costs, £32, wow! But I only had £20 on me.
After working until 20:00 I got a lift to Dorking train station, bought a single to Brighton £11.80, changed at Reigate, changed at Gatwick and got to Brighton at 23:25. At this time there were no busses going in the direction I wanted, I wasn’t about to pay for another taxi, so I walked for 2 miles in 50 mins, including a piss up a tree and got home at 00:15.

4hrs 15 mins!! Normally this journey takes me about 1hour 15mins and should cost about £6 in petrol, not £43.80!!
So don’t take your 33 for granted ever again and don’t procrastinate when it comes to replacing parts, or you’ll pay a price like me Crying or Very sad

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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

My options are,
Change cam belts and pulleys, hope valves aren’t bent
Replace a head if valves are bent
Replace engine, like for like
Replace engine with a non cat cammed engine

Now for a question Laughing

Is it possible that the valves havent been bent?
Has anyone fitted a non cat cammed engine to a cat and lambda sensor with motronics 4.1 ecu and checked to see if it would pass the emissions?
I ask this as I was thinking if I have to change the engine, which would probably be cheaper if I couldn’t get hold of a cat cammed engine, would this work?

I was told when inquiring about getting hotter cams for my cat cammed engine, that a non cat cammed engine if fitted to a cat car with cat and lambda probe should pass Joe blogs' garage emissions test as its no where near as tight as the government testing they do on new vehicles, which is why Alfa had to change the exhaust cams
(EDIT "INLET")
on cat equipped cars and the ecu, compared to non cat cars.

I will shop around for cam belt pulley replacement today.
Is there a way to tell if the valves are bent without replacing belts or removing the heads? I can’t remove the covers to see where the cams came to rest at the moment, as I don’t have a garage or a work place.

What would you suggest?
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

john 33_16v · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:43 am Post subject:

Al- Nightmare!! -really sorry mate.

It may be slightly possible the valves haven't bent. All you can do is replace belt/s, time it up and check compressions.

If you suspect bent valves, you will have to drop the engine and take the head off to inspect, and replace valves as neccesary. This will take time and cost, but at least you get to keep the rest of your engine. If you get some old engine off of ebay etc it's an unknown quantity. It's unlikely there will be any piston damage as valves are so light.

A straight head swap would probably be the least hassle.

Dont know wether precat engine would pass mot emissions, but possibly would. My catted car has had a replacement inlet camshaft on one side, and i think it may be a non-cat one, with no ill effects.

Good luck, hope you can fix it up soon.

John

P.s how old were your belts/tensioners
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If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
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08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Thanks John, my fault Crying or Very sad

Just been ringing round the local Alfa garages, 1 mechanic said that out of about 20 cars that have had a belt go only 1 didn’t do any damage, he would replace cam belt and pulleys for £100 but cant store car or do it until next week. Another garage has a spare head and will do a head rebuild for £100, inlet valves are £14 each and he has some second hand exhaust valves for £20, new £30 each. To do the heads is an engine out job he said about £500, also said that its more than likely its got bent valves and guides might be damaged if valves are slightly bent.

I’ve looked for a post on removing head on a 16v with engine in situ but can’t find it, is it possible?

The belts were done just before I bought the car about 1 ½ years ago but I don’t think the pulleys were done and I was waiting for pulleys that are pre built onto the tensioner to arrive as I don’t have a garage, anywhere to store the car, or access to a press, I was going to just do a straight swap. DOH!

I can’t decide what to do, due to no storage or garage, get belt and pulleys done and prey valves aren’t bent £100, or take head off, find out head is ok, refit and then get belt and pulleys done? £100 plus head gasket, if damaged get rebuilt another £100. Or get garage to do whole thing, price of a replacement car.

Going to try driving car from Horley to leatherhead and then to brighton by removing injectors and plugs on side with the broken belt.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Admin · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject:

Hi

It is tight to get the heads off an 8V in the car. Suspect a 16V is just about impossible. There is an Alfa tool for doing the head bolts with the engine in the car (if you order it, expect it to arrive sometime around never, took a year for mine to arrive).

I would be tempted to lob a new belt on quickly and then do a compression check.

All the best

Keith
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john 33_16v · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject:

Al, don't try driving the car until a new belt has been fitted, timed etc. If you drive it you WILL bend some valves on that side for sure.

16v head can only be taken off with engine out really. An alfa specialist told me it's possible but you have to undo engine mounts, lean the engine over, and probably use the special tool that Keith has mentioned.

With engine out, head swap is no big deal really.

Cheers,

John
_________________
If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Thanks guys, I hear what you’re saying but feel I have no choice re driving it, I’m in Brighton, car is in Horley, I cant leave it in the pub car park and I cant find anywhere local to move it to. My thinking is that the damage, if any, must be done already, as the belt went when changing from 4th to fifth and then drove for about 300meters and then cranked it over 2 or 3 times. If miraculously the valves came to rest all closed, or away from head, no more damage can be done?
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

bobbber · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject:

Al,

Don't you have breakdown cover so they'll send you a pickup and take it home?

If not... there are several places on eBay who will tow it for you for probably £50. Don't drive it!

Bob
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Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

lee16v · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject:

Al,
Bad times mate.
Just to let you know the heads can be taken off with the engine in situ. How do i know this? I've done it myself! Had to make a tool to get the rear head bolts off but it can be done.
Also I've got some valves here if you need them. They just need a clean up and re-seating.

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

I’m not a member of the AA "Alfa Aholics" I’m afraid, however I am able to borrow a car for a week and a half, so I will tow it somewhere else.
I’m a little worried about the brakes as they went spongy, not like the normal hard pedal when engine isn’t assisting the servo, I would hate to go into the back of my friends car whilst being towed.
Let’s hope I can be as lucky as I was with my electrics.
I’ll get the belt and pulleys done and see if I can borrow that Alfa tool from the Alfa mechanic that will rebuild the heads so I could attempt to remove engine in situ, hope not.
Thanks guys
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

ZeNiTh-PbArM · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject:

Hi

i think it's this one you're referring to

stedee · Alfa 33 Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 364 Location: brighouse

the heads are quite easy to get off if you havea torque drive set like me ,
the pain is the cover, i ended up undoing the engine mounts to get it off,
knowing what i do now i could do the whole job in a day but hey i`ve had the practise.its a shame i gave the headsi had to the guy who bought my alfa otherwise i would have let you have the head and make the job easy.

has anyone heard of him on here, he did say he would come on here.
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bobbber · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject:

Steve,

Pretty sure he hasn't appeared yet mate!

Bob
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Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

ZeNiTh-PbArM · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject:

hi, i experienced tensioner failure on 16V engine already.
bent all eight valves LH side, had to replace valves, guides, and lifters.
i removed the head without dropping the engine, not a beginner's job though.
replacing valve guides is a nightmare as exhaust guides are cast iron and not bronze, they are brittle and will explode if hammered in ; moreover they come out of the package drilled but not bored, you have to ream them after installing them (and reamer is 7mm dia, which is highly non-standard diameter, hence hard to find).
sourcing another undamaged head might prove cheaper and quicker, since needed parts are awfully expensive at your local dealer.
wish you good luck with your rebuild,
regards,
zp

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

thanks guys, think its going to be a long time until im driving her again, if it turns out next week that all is bent up, which i expect it will be.
So are you saying that with that specialised tool or a torque drive set i should be able to get the head off without dropping engine, I have done loads of heads on my 8v.
Undo front engin mount, move engine over, undoo head cover, use alfa tool or torque drive set, remove head????
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

lee16v · Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject:

Yep that's about it Al but i didn't undo the engine mount to do mine but it would make the job easier.

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Ok, I ordered pulleys and belts today, but not tensioners, as there are 2 types, which is where my problem started. The garage can press the pulleys onto the old tensioners, is that a problem or do the springs need replacing? Can the springs be ordered separately?
I have noticed a slight oil leak in the past from the right side and it has been suggested that the cam bearing might be at fault. Do you have to remove the head to do this? I was thinking as the cam belts this could be done.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

stedee · Alfa 33 Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 364 Location: brighouse

cam bearing? do u mean the cam seal, you should get these with the headgasket set unless you are using an 8v headgasket.
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

thanks, ill bear that in mind if and when i have to remove the head.
yer thats it, cam seal, so can it be done without removing head??? I was only thinking of just ordering the head gasket by itself Laughing

but if it can be done.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Been trying to figure out at what position the cam belt has to fail for the valves to be in a position for them not to be bent and cant.

Induction, inlet valves open, compression, inlet and exhaust valves closed, ignition, inlet and exhaust valves closed, exhaust, exhaust valves open.

Cylinders 2 & 4 fire one after the other, so you have half of the cycle of the penultimate cylinder where valve are closed, compression and explosion. The last cylinder is closed for compression/explosion just as penultimate is 1/2 way through explosion???
So it is possible?
Anyone got an idea where the cam timing would be pointing?
I could then move the cams so they are fully closed, take of injectors and remove plugs and drive it. as i cant get hold of the car or anyone to tow it.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

john 33_16v · Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject:

Al,

I don't think you will be able to move the cams into any positions to have the valves all closed on both cylinders, and if there were two positions, the camshafts wont stay there. When turning the cam sprockets it takes a bit of effort to turn them, as they are under the tension of the valve springs, so if you were say fitting a new belt you have to devise a tool to lock them in the desired position using the holes and not the teeth.

The car will also probably be undriveable on two cylinders if it would start at all.

John
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If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

was looking forward to driving a 2cv
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

bobbber · Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:28 am Post subject:

I had a 2cv for 8 years.... VERY underrated car actually.

Bob Cool

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Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

lol a friend of mine had one aswell, he was mad into them, used to goto 2cv race meets and stuff lol. He told me he got pulled over by the police, who were grinning, asking do you know what speed you were doing? no he replied, they told him and he said, i didnt know it could go that fast. I cant remember what speed he was doing.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

john 33_16v · Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:16 am Post subject:

Borrowed sister in laws 2cv charleston when sud off the road many years ago. Once i got my head around the gearshift, it was sort of fun. Made the sud feel flipping quick though!

John
_________________
If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue