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bobbber
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Joined: 14 May 2003
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Location: The Greatest Town on Earth - Swadlincote, UK
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 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: Relays |
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Hi guys... I'm wondering whether my fuel pump is failing to run. I understand on the 16v it doesn't "prime" when the key is just turned in the ignition? Therefore, only when you're turning it over or when the engine is actually running?
Thought about the relay for running the pump. I wonder which one of these relays controls the fuel pump and which holes I need to stick my "jumper wire" in to make the fuel pump run in isolation. Here are some pictures of the relays in the engine bay (I understand this is for a RHD drive only as some are in the passenger compartment on a LHD?). May be a good time for us to label all these relays and their useage???
Anyone have any idea on what all these do? And yes, I know I have too many things coming from my +ve on the battery! 
Yours most thankingly...
Bob
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Admin
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Location: Stafford, UK
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
Not sure. The relays seem to vary. Best to check the wiring diagram and then work from the colours of the wires.
If you can get someone else to try cranking the car over you should be able to feel the pump under the car to see if it is vibrating. Or connect a volt meter over the terminals on it to see if it is getting power.
All the best
Keith
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bobbber
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Gotcha Keith... thanks for the advice.
So I'm gonna run a peice of cable between the relay connectors that are Red(1.5mm) and Pink/White(1.5mm) and listen for the old whirring...
That makes sense! Thanks again...
Bob 
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Oggie
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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SWEET JESUS , MARY AND JOSEPH , how many wires from the + terminal. Oh I might be able to do this Spa thingy, do you bring your own flannel?.
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BigAl
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paulhide
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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I just connected my faithful bulb-on-wires to the pump wires so I could see if power was directed there when I turned the key on my own.
What date is Spa-italia next year?
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BigAl
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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bobbber, i cant remember exactly but im looking, i think the other relay in the second picture is for the injectors and that it gets its signal from the fuel pump relay so if that fails the injectors wont work, or something like that.
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gritsop
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Joined: 23 Apr 2003
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Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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As fas as I can see in the second photo, I notice the rightmost relay having a blue fuse.
If this fuse is 15A then this is the relay block for the fuel pump.
Regards,
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BigAl
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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I remembered going through all this with another member, i cant remember who.
You will not get any fuel if there is no spark, have you check for a spark?
If you get no spark its usually from no signal from the CAS crank angular sensor, this signal feeds the fuel pump which powers the injectors.
If you have an accident where the engine stops the CAS gives no signal so no spark is given and no signal to the fuel pump is given either so no fuel is pumped, stops everything going up in a fireball.
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BigAl
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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I had it the wrong way around, the fuel pump is powered from the relay from the injectors
| Quote: |
Relay
The Motronic electrical system is controlled by a single system relay with dual contacts. A permanent voltage supply is made to
relay terminal 30 from the battery positive terminal. When the ignition is switched on, a voltage supply is made to terminal 86 and
this energises the first relay winding which is connected to earth. This causes the first relay contacts to close and terminal 30 is
connected to the output circuit at terminal 87. A voltage supply is thus output at terminal 87. Terminal 87 supplies voltage to the
injectors, ECU: t35, ISCV and the FTVV when fitted. In addition voltage is supplied to the second relay contact.
When the ignition is switched on. the ECU briefly earths relay contact 85b at ECU terminal 20. This energises the second relay
winding, which closes the second relay contact and connects voltage from terminal 30 to terminal 87b, thereby providing voltage
to the fuel pump circuit. After a second or so, the ECU opens the circuit and the pump stops. This brief running of the fuel pump
allows pressure to build within the fuel pressure lines, and provides for an easier start.
The second circuit will then remain open until the engine is cranked or run. Once the ECU receives a speed signal from the CAS,
the second winding will again be energised by the ECU, and the fuel pump will run until the engine is stopped. |
http://www.opel-scan.ru/files/Opel_MotronicML4.1.pdf
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bobbber
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Joined: 14 May 2003
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Location: The Greatest Town on Earth - Swadlincote, UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Comprehensive posts guys (esp. Al), thank you very much. If it's the relay in the second photo, then yes Than, it's the one with the fuse.
It's not the crank sensor, as I tested for a spark with a timing light. Paul, I've thought about doing that with a bulb too... sometimes SO difficult working on ones own.
No dates for SPA yet - if all interested could please make their way to the "Mainland Europe" section... that would be great!
Bob
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bobbber
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Right then... this is how I ended up isolating relay failure. I've already got a small plastic bag wrapped around an injector removed from the throttle body.
I began by disconnecting the battery and removing the fuel pump relay. "Hard-wiring" the switched side of the relay across terminals 30 and 87 :
Then I connected the battery and heard the wonderful whirring noise of the fuel pump. Looking at the bag, it was now full of fuel :
Ok... so the connections, fuse and wiring to the fuel pump AND the fuel pump itself is ok at this point.
Next I went about checking if the relay coil voltage was present (to check the key mechanism, fuses and wiring was ok on that part of the equation too). I disconnected the battery again. On the relay socket tag 86 (at the bottom on mine) is positive and 85 at the top is negative. I connected a voltmeter thus and reconnected the battery :
No voltage showed, but when the ignition key was turned, hey presto :
This, I think, isolates the problem to the relay... now to find a replacement!
Bob
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bobbber
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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I've taken the relay apart now...
Seems like some of the coil wiring has MELTED!!!!
Bob 
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john 33_16v
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| bobbber wrote: |
Bob |
Nice 
Glad you got to the bottom of it.
John
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bobbber
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Looks loverly dunnit John...
Bob
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Admin
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| bobbber wrote: |
| Looks loverly dunnit John... |
Did you get scared by having the inflammable liquids floating around?
All the best
Keith
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BigAl
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bobbber
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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As I like to be thorough :
Fiat/Alfa part numbers are (in order of use, oldest first) : 7619302, 60807340 and finally 82405807
Bosch original part number is : 0 332 014 112
I have looked for new alternatives and here are the part numbers (ref : http://www.boschmotorsandcontrols.co.uk/relais/relais.pdf) :
Current Bosch part numbers : 0 332 019 109 or 0 332 019 155 (fuel pump relay is A1 Bosch terminal form with S2 Bosch circuit diagram/internals, N/O - normally open)
Hope this helps someone... and hope I've got it right!
Bob
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 388
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
beware as "red stripe" bosch relays feature an integrated diode and shall not be replaced by any simple relay.
Regards,
zp |
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paulhide
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bobbber
P4
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Quite right ZP... this stops the "reverse charge spikes" associated with discharge in the coil (remember that from my Amateur Radio days!).
In a simple low amp coil, high amp drain across the switch scenario, the diode is not required. However, when the coil is driven by transistors, ICs or other sensitive equipment (including your ECU) this protection is required to ensure the voltage spike doesn't damage them. I think (or rather I think I remember) the diode takes the spike and reroutes it back through the coil, discharging it slowly (in electrical terms) rather than instantly. Diodes only allow current to flow one way.
The relays also often have a circuit diagram imprinted on the side of the case.
Bob
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bobbber
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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AGHHHHHHH! New relay fitted (thanks Matt!)
Still won't run 
When I turn her over, the pick-up rev meter I have attached to one of the HT leads registers 130rpm. Surely this isn't right? Perhaps it is!
Also, when turning it over, I get a rhythmical "click-click-click"... is this normal? Perhaps another relay is conking out on me?!
Bob
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 388
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
you better short those relays with a wire jumper and see if the car starts!
All the best,
Antonio |
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Admin
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Joined: 19 Feb 2003
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Location: Stafford, UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| bobbber wrote: |
| When I turn her over, the pick-up rev meter I have attached to one of the HT leads registers 130rpm. Surely this isn't right? Perhaps it is! |
Coil fires 4 times for each firing on an HT lead, hence if the inductive rev counter is designed for a coil lead on a 4 cylinder engine it will be reading 1/4 of the actual rpm.
| bobbber wrote: |
| Also, when turning it over, I get a rhythmical "click-click-click"... is this normal? Perhaps another relay is conking out on me?! |
From the description it does sound like a relay that is either on the way out or doesn't have a good enough power feed.
All the best
Keith
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bobbber
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Admin wrote: |
| Coil fires 4 times for each firing on an HT lead, hence if the inductive rev counter is designed for a coil lead on a 4 cylinder engine it will be reading 1/4 of the actual rpm. |
??? I don't think you've got that right Keith. Each spark plug fires once for every two engine revolutions (for cars with a dizzy, the newer wasted spark system is slightly different). So if you were measuring the pickup on one HT lead that would be half RPM. Besides, the meter is for a four stroke engine which automatically doubles the pick-up rate...
Having an off day mate?
Perhaps I am!
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