Alfa Pages

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Hey guys, I’m getting the not starting problem again, tapping on the solenoid worked once but no more, wiggled the earth wires for the immobiliser, worked once.
I have already stripped the starter motor, checking the brushes and re lubricating the solenoid, but all looked ok, as in no cracks in the magnets.
The car has been stationary for 7 months, but started 1st time on demand, not anymore? Any ideas?
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x2 33 16v
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Oggie · Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject:

Are the electrical contacts on tight, I have had this issue before when I only finger tightened the nut.
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PHAT 33

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

that was quick, i havent touched that side of the engine, but i did check the exciter wire no no avail Sad

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x2 33 16v
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Oggie · Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject:

if you need a starter motor I think i have one in my shed , all yours for ......nowt Mr. Green

.
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PHAT 33

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

sweet, thanks, im not sure if it is at fault though??? I guess replacing it will identify it if is or not Smile

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x2 33 16v
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john 33_16v · Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject:

Did you ever do the Scott Sander mod- running in a supply wire direct from the battery with a relay fed from the original solenoid wire?

This solved an intermittant starter I had years ago. It has never failed since.

John
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If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
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93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

I never got around to it, as I thought I cured it last time, when I thought it was the alarm at fault. I can’t figure it out, I think it might be high resistance in the wires somewhere, causing not enough power to activate the solenoid. The first time this happened I removed the black exciter wire off the starter and connected a wire in its place and ran it to the positive battery terminal. To start the engine I would turn on the ignition and then get out of the car and touch the wire on the positive battery terminal.
I can’t remember the exact wiring for Scott Sanders mod but I assume that you use the exciter wire to trigger the wire I had in place with a relay.
I will go out and measure the voltage and resistance on the exciter wire later.
thanks
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Dr A. 33 1.5IE · Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:12 am Post subject:

Hello,

I went through the same problem with you for over a year now. It occured occasionally, usually when I had to make a quick stop. But recently the car did not start at all.

If you have already tried to connect a wire from the battery straight to the starter motor and it started then it is not the motor at fault.

Better check the ignition module. It might need replacement (about 30 Euros for a used one) but also make sure thay the wiring that connects the ignition module with the main wiring loom (under the steering wheel) has all in place.

When you are having the problem just wiggle a bit the ignition wires. Maybe one of them is broken.

Best of luck
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1994 Alfa 33 1.5 IE Cat. 220.000Kms and still going strong!!! (Από την Αθήνα και τώρα στην Λευκωσία)

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Thanks for conformation that it’s definitely not the starter motor. I was and now am convinced that it is the alarm, which has an immobiliser. The wires out of the ignition module have, “I think from memory” an earth “yellow and some other colour wire” that is spliced, this is wired into the alarm and if I turn off the alarm and remove the block connector to it, join these 2 wires at the block connection the car starts, some times. Normally I just wiggle these wires when they are attached to the alarm and the alarm is on and connected, it usually starts.
Thanks for the tip, I will try.
Just to recap on how to measure voltage and resistance on my multimeter and not blow it up, is it as following?

To check the voltage on the black exciter wire, remove said wire, turn multimeter to 20 volts range, attach 1 probe to the wire and the other to earth, turn ignition key.

To check current, turn multimeter to Ohms, attach one probe to black exciter wire and the other to the terminal it should go to on the starter motor and turn ignition key.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

typical, i went out to the car with my multimeter and tried, several times to start the car throughout the day and it started 1st time every time, DOH! So i could not get a reading of when its not working.
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x2 33 16v
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Typical, when I needed it for work yesterday guess what? It didn’t start Laughing

did I have my multimeter? No, did I have time? No Laughing

It didn’t want to start several times, so I used a wire from the +battery to the exciter wire. I'm thinking of just getting a push here to start button and wire it into the dash with a fuse connected to dais exciter wire and a double pole spade connector on the starter motor. That way I can try the key and if it doesn’t work, push the button.
Still haven’t located the fault
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

john 33_16v · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:39 am Post subject:

Hi,

I'd just do the mod. It's very straightforward, then problem solved and no hacking your dash to bits- although a start button might be cool.

You just need some suitable cable, relay (mine was an old spotlight one i had kicking about), a few conectors, and a fusable link near to the battery terminal.

John
_________________
If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

I was thinking of just using a wire with a 1/4" piggyback connector on one end. One end could be attached to the starter motors exciter wire and where the exciter wire goes, so I still have the choice of trying the key and not changing any of the original loom. The other end could go onto a push to make contact single pole switch and then from the other pole of the switch could be wired with another piggyback connector, onto the cigarette lighter, which is fused.
My problem is that this method is not like how a proper push to start switch would be wired in, as my wiring has a fault and is not reliable, there is no way of preventing the starter motor turning again if the button is pressed after the engine has fired up, apart from not pushing the button again. Can anyone think of an easy way to stop wondering hands from doing this?
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x2 33 16v
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john 33_16v · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:32 am Post subject:

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

i dont think that would fix my problem because its this wire thats not getting enough juice, if any, to start the starter, i doubt it would be enough to trigger the relay??
I like the idea of a tied up passenger lol. This button needs to be clearly shown, no need in hiding it!!!
Unless i get one that says passenger ejector seat, press at your own risk
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Admin · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject:

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

That sounds great, so to clarify, can I connect a 1/4" piggyback on the oil pressure switch instead of routing around the console to find the warning light. I assume the oil pressure switch just lights up the warning light. Is it an of off or could this be used to feed an oil pressure gauge and therefore be a variable output?
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x2 33 16v
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dave · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: re multimeter

hi al

ac volts ---------- mains voltage etc
dc volts -----------battery voltage ???
ohms ----------- resitance or you can check continuity
amps ------------- current

make sure you have on right setting and amps as you could blow your multimeter ??

good luck
dave

ps could be your immobilser had this proplem on one of my alfas and on a freinds fiat coupe
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Admin · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:37 am Post subject:

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Dr A. 33 1.5IE

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Car will not start at all from the key now, even after wiggling the ignition wire, i will have to remove the steering column cowling and investigate further. At the moment im having to start my car with wire from + battery terminal to exciter wire on the starter, not good when its dark Laughing

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x2 33 16v
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

I think I fixed the problem by removing the alarm to find out the shorting had melted the immobiliser part of the alarm, causing it to be immobilised all the time.

Nearly a year later the car has started to do it again, not the alarm this time, I fixed all the wire loom around the steering column, so not that, not the starter motor because I have found out what the problem is.

Anyone want to guess what it was/is as I haven’t got round to permanently fixing it yet?
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x2 33 16v
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33bits · Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject:

A bad connection in the ignition switch?
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

nop

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x2 33 16v
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Dr A. 33 1.5IE · Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject:

Big Al,

If the ignition module is not at fault try the Sander's mod. It cost me 20 euros at a local car electrician and since then the car starts everytime. Somehow not enough juice gets from the battery to the starter motor (ageing wiring) and so this mod makes sure that enough power gets to the starter.

If you want to be sure that the starter motor does its job get a thick wire and connect the positive pole from the battery to the starter motor... if it starts then you just need the mod nothing else.

Good luck
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1994 Alfa 33 1.5 IE Cat. 220.000Kms and still going strong!!! (Από την Αθήνα και τώρα στην Λευκωσία)