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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Going for the NOS cam supports. Early Christmas present!! Lol
So new cams/tappets and NOS cam supports! Nice... _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Change of plan for the moment.
I had the used cam box measured accurately and surprisingly it's all within specs and no lateral wear. backlash: 0.050 - 0.058 mm
So... I will try this one out first before forking out a ton load of cash for NOS parts.
[url]
Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/url]
[url]
Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/url] _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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ZeNiTh-PbArM Alfa 33
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 388 Location: Paris, France
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
Did you check a few things :
- ticking noise can be caused by oil pressure not getting to the tappet ; did you check for clogged oil ways in the cam box?
- are you positive the noise is indeed due to cam/follower backlash? Other possibilities are piston slap in cylinder (usually more noise when cold), backlash between piston and conrod, or leaky exhaust at the cylinder head to manifold junction.
If you suspect cam boxes, one solution is to swap parts between left & right cylinder banks and see if the noise changes side or not.
regards,
zp |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the suggestions/advice.
Yes everything has been checked thoroughly (assistance with Guy Croft), and we are 95% sure it's the worn bucket causing loss of oil pressure in this one even with new tappets.
Time will tell. Hopefully get the head back on this weekend and test.
This bucket was particularly worn, oval and way out of tolerance.
Piston slap and worn shells have a distintive sound and different timing.
Also we pulled the plugs while idling (this would reduce the sound if it was a small end shell).
Tick tick tick ONLY when engine gets hot and in the bucket that was most worn/oval.
Silent when cold. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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I am a little puzzled by what you mean by “bucket”.
To me a bucket is part of the hydraulic lifter, but you say these are all new, so how can a new bucket be worn, oval and out of tolerance?
I thought maybe you meant the bore in the cam box in which the lifter runs, but you already said the cam box has been measured accurately and is all within specs…. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry bore yes.
The cylinder/bore that the tappet fits into is worn and oval.
Obviously tilting as it bottoms out and loosing it's pressure.
The used one I sourced is within specs and not oval at all. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Brit01 wrote: |
Sorry bore yes.
The cylinder/bore that the tappet fits into is worn and oval.
Obviously tilting as it bottoms out and loosing it's pressure.
The used one I sourced is within specs and not oval at all. |
So you found and fitted a used cam box (you didn't actually mention that) rather than sleeving the bad bore in your cam box as you intended earlier? _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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ah my apologies. Using 4 forums at once - lol
Yes sourced an old one, been sitting around for years, but after cleaning a lot, dishwasher etc lol
it came out nice.
Lets see if it holds the pressure in the new tappets better,
[url]
Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/url]
[url]
Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/url] _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Brit01 wrote: |
ah my apologies. Using 4 forums at once - lol |
Not at all. This has been quite a useful and informative thread for anyone with valvegear noise.
I will certainly check the lifter bores together with everything else if I remove any heads in the future.
Incidentally, when looking for info on hydraulic tappets, I came across a remark in a Wiki article that most engines designed since the 80's have reverted to solid tappets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_tappet
It says bucket type mechanical tappets rarely need adjustmant, and from my experience with the Sprint engine I agree with this.
I have checked the clearances a couple of times (because the book said so), and they needed no adjustment. In fact I'm pretty sure they have never been adjusted from new, as the car was only a couple of years old when we bought it.
The engine makes no more valvegear noise than the others, which have hydraulic lifters. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Yes it was a big mistake not to measure the bores with a micrometer and check for lateral wear. Never skimp on measuring and measuring again.
1-2 thou can make a difference.
Yes I agree with mechanical tappets 100%.
One day I will convert it. New heads, faster cams and mech tappets for sure with the accessible cam box with 4 screws on top.
I HATE the alfa cam box with the hydraulic tappets. Whole head needs to come off, new head gasket, drain water, exhaust manifold off, everything.
PITA.
Here you can see the old bore with wear below and above the oil hole.
[url]
Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/url] _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Brit01 wrote: |
I HATE the alfa cam box with the hydraulic tappets. Whole head needs to come off, new head gasket, drain water, exhaust manifold off, everything.
PITA.
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Hear hear. Hydraulic tappets seem such a great idea, don't they?
Like 8-track casettes and Betamax _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Hydraulic tappets seem such a great idea, don't they? |
Would have been a much smarter idea to use the rocker style with easy access top but they are Italian designers!
As all the Top Gear folks say - bad cars but they'd still buy them as they look and sound cool! _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yess my gasket set has finally arrived - now full steam ahead. (and no ticking hopefully!!) _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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BigAl P4
Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers mate.
Also going for a new radiator tomorrow.
My old bent copper one had seen it's days I think. Weighs a ton and a half and is slightly bent.
Damaged in one accident and is probably over 2 decades old now.
Going to try out one of the modern plastic/aluminium radiators. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Good progress done this weekend.
All assembled - first heat cycle completed.
Re-retorqued day after on Sunday and checked oil/water levels. All good.
New Bosch cap and rotor installed.
Also NEW fusebox lid!! Rare item.
Ran it up to temp again today, radiator worked nicely and NO TICKING!!!
Got to give it some testing on the highways this week to see if all is ok.
Unfortunately the microphone is bad on the camera and echoes in the garage - sounds much smoother believe me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2v0z85Mlmo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlY4YKMLrX8 _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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BigAl P4
Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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No I can't remember what it should sound like or sounded like before.
Definitely no ticking now. After a hard 30km highway run and fan kicking in when I entered the parking lot (hot engine), I opened up the bonnet and no ticking. I guess all is normal now
I plan to change the other cam box also as it had lateral wear.
I will try and upload a better video this week. I tried last night in the garage but there was so much echo it sounded bad.
New aluminium radiator brings the temp down to 82 quickly but I have a 90/80 sensor and I think I could do with a 82/83 sensor. I don't need the temp to fall below 82-80.
I've heard of 87/83 ones but haven't found one yet.
Mine is M22 with 2 x 6.3 connectors.
Any suggestions? _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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gritsop Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 766 Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:14 am Post subject: |
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Not at the end of the road yet my friend.
Now my lambda sensor and gauge are giving me incorrect readings.
It will occasionally give me the correct AFR of about 13.5 then shoot off the scale to 20+ and start flashing.
If the sensor was faulty they told me if would show a 3.
Could be an air leak. I changed the gaskets on the manifold tonight - no change!!!
Could be a hairline crack on the 2-1 weld I guess. I did spot a pinhole on the left weld!!
Put some duck tape on it and started it up cold - still no correct reading.
Maybe a bigger hole where I can't see.
Tech support advised me to clean the Bosch lambda - could be dirty! _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Very bad news
Ticking is back, same place also.
What now?
Leaking exhaust manifold or small end bearing to look at at?
Can a small end bearing sound similar to a ticking tappet?
Goes away when revved.
BUT when I brake under compression in gear I sometimes get a rattle. No knocking but rattling!!
This has been present for a long time.
getting a fellow 33 fanatic to check the noises on Sunday.
So annoying as it went away for a short while.
This is some dark area staining around the flange/exhaust manifold under piston 3. Maybe a distorted flange.
Trying to eliminate possibilities as chances are it being a tappet now are remote IMHO. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Surely you would be able to feel any exhaust gases escaping around the manifold gasket area with your hand, whilst the engine was running? (being careful not to burn yourself) _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188 |
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Bobkelso Alfa Sprint
Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 190 Location: Milan - Italy
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, your work on that motor and the explanation and photos you are posting are very good.
And for me it is not only usefull, but interesting,
I read it day by day as a novel for motorhead people ''
For your last post:
- in a motor just rebuild, so all clean, probably the "dark area staining around
the flange/exhaust manifold under piston 3" is a crear indication
something to look at first of all other ipotesis
- one time I had some strange problems of my carb 33 going
differently day bay day, varing fuel consume, exaust Co,
and rumor/vibration of the motor (going 3 and 1/2 ),
like a valve/hydraulic lifter was non perfect sometimes,
it was old ignition cables leaking but very little, not evident,
and no one I asked founded the problem, until I read in a forum
that the only way to discover that weak electric leaking was looking
at the cables with the idling motor in the night in an area non urban,
with very low lights, possibly in a night with hy humidity;
Few fugitive blu sparkles where there!! _________________ Alfa 33 |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Many thanks for your kind comments.
It is certainly a long adventure.
Spark is like a lightening strike.
New Bosch cap and rotor. Magnecore 8.5mm red cables.
If I remove one of them the spark can jump 3 inches - deep blue and makes a hell of a bang!!!
I just cleaned and all plugs and changed them around. Retarded ignition by 1 degree but no change at all.
I guess next purchase is a new manifold which has been on my list for a year.
Cross over in stainless steel.
Maybe I do have a distorted flange on piston 3. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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also probably just coincidence with the oil filters.
I changed from Mann to Fiaam filter this oil change when the ticking started yesterday.
This shouldn't have anything to do with it no? _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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