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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Brit01 wrote: |
I've decided to be on the safe side and change the belts.
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A wise move I think.
I never believe belts have been changed unless I see it done or do it myself.
The Trofeo supposedley had a belt and tensioner "kit" fitted about 50,000Km before I bought it. As that was 3 years previously I decided to change them.
The relevant bill, which included a silencer, trapezoidal belts, and liquids, was from "** Performances - specialists Ferrari - Posche - Lamborghini", near Toulouse.
Neither the belts nor the tensioners were a pair - different brands, and the set with the lower, less accessible, tensioner looked like they had never been changed. The tensioner wheel had flats on it due to not turning, as the belt was loose, and the belt was far older than the other one.
Sorry, can't help with a picture of the pulley.
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I never believe belts have been changed unless I see it done or do it myself. |
I'm believing this for many parts of my car now. The carbs were the worst. I changed all the parts inside from jets to floaters.
Now I need to work on the timing.
Some big doubts I have regarding the inner side of the crankshaft pulley and the tensioner pulley alignment.
Is the tensioner pulley supposed to allign the timing belt slightly inwards away from the inner side of the cranshaft pulley?
Or is the inner side of the crankshaft pulley shaped in a certain way as not to touch the belt too much?
Don't want to have to remove the crankshaft pulley if necessary. Maybe just the tensioner is slightly out of allignment and pulling the belt too close to the crankshaft pulley causing it to rub and squeak.
Not good at all and needs fixing asap.
Thanks Rflower.
Hope you can assist me here.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I know/recall, the belts are aligned by the flanges on the tensioner wheels and guides on the crankshaft..
You could check that the spring ends are properly seated in the holes in the tensioner and the front of the engine block, and not stopping it lying flat against the block when the bolt is tightened..
Also, is there any excessive slack in the tensioner wheel bearing, making the pulley tilt?
Is there any excessive wear on the tensioner wheel flange?
I just checked my Haynes Manual. The order of parts to fit the crankshaft pulley is :- Inner belt guide (a large smooth shim), LH or inner camshaft belt drive pulley, spacer, RH or outer camshaft belt drive pulley, alternator/water pump pulley, washer, nut.
I assume these are all correctly positioned.
So the back of the alternator/water pump pulley evidently also acts as guide for the RH camshaft belt.
Maybe it should have a slight forward curve on its profile as you suggested, so it doesn't rub the belt?
I seem to remember you had the pulley made from scratch, so perhaps it is too flat on the back side.
Have you checked this with a straight edge across the back of the old pulley?
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Maybe it should have a slight forward curve on its profile so it doesn't rub the belt?
I seem to remember you had the pulley made, so perhaps it's too flat on the back side. |
Thansk Rflower.
Yes the pulley is totally flat on the back all 122mm of it.
Tensioner pulleys are almost new and no signs of wear. They also sit flat against the body of the engine perfectly.
I was told the belt should not be more than 16.7mm wide.
I will measure this.
This week I will try to remove the crankshaft pulley (it was replaced 6 months ago). Hoping it's not too tight to have to use an air wrench.
If not then more complications. Have to get a mechanic with an air wrench.
I'm going to take it to a metal worker and have a small amount shaved off the inner side at a slight angle so it doesn't rub on the inside.
Also buy a new pair of belts.
Now in regards to removing to the belts i understand that the right handside camshaft pulley is under tension so will spring anticlockwise when removing the belt.
The left side will not.
So when I replace the new belts should be pretty easy it the left side is left at TDC (1st cylinder).
Just the right side is a bit fiddly aligning the 2 grooves vertically while fitting the outer belt at TDC and turning the pulley at the same time.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Maybe you could just put a shim between the outer camshaft drive pulley and the water pump belt pulley, to clear the belt?
You could turn the engine a few times with the covers off, and also run it briefly without the water pump and alternator belts, to verify the running position of the cambelts.
Regarding holding the RH camshft in position when fitting the belt, I just put an offset ring spanner on the nut and wedge this in position with a bit of wood against a handy part of engine/bodywork.
It doesn't need much force to keep it in place with a decent length spanner. |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Maybe you could just put a shim between the outer camshaft drive pulley and the water pump belt pulley, to clear the belt? |
Could be but knowing this country it would be easier to take the pulley to a metalworker than trying to find a shim that fits.
| Quote: |
| Regarding holding the RH camshft in position when fitting the belt, I just put an offset ring spanner on the nut and wedge this in position with a bit of wood against a handy part of engine/bodywork. |
Good idea. I'll do just that.
thanks mate
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Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Brit01 wrote: |
knowing this country it would be easier to take the pulley to a metalworker than trying to find a shim that fits.
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Can't be that bad there. At least folks probably know how to get by and make stuff instead of just buying new parts.
You could make a shim yourself, not rocket science. If you have it turned down it has to be accurately centred to keep the balance.
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| If you have it turned down it has to be accurately centred to keep the balance. |
As it's a;ready centred well, I'm just going to have 1mm taken off the inner 2cm or so leaving it's own shim about 1cm like the old pulley.
Have to take it of either way.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Hi guys,
I tried removing the cranskhaft pulley nut last night without success!!
I read the Haynes manual and it said to place a large screwdriver in the gear of the starte motor. That worked well. The teeth are strong and the gap was just right to wedge the tool in.
But still couldn't budge it. Have bruises on my palms almost today.
Couldn't get hold of a workshop with a pneumatic wrench yet.
Could buy a longer breaker bar but at some cost for one time use!!
Was thinking of placing a piece of sand paper on a piece of hard plastic and slowly try to sand a little off the inner edge of the pulley while the engine is idling.
Probably just needs 0.5mm taking off. I'll give it a try.
Then if I manage to take just a fraction of the inside I'll put the new belts on.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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New belts done (1.5 hours including compression test (kit I bought), 190 psi more or less on each cylinder. rear left had less 183. Maybe the tappet issue.
But new belts were great. Adjusted the timing and car felt nice and crisp.
Ok in a month or 2 I will tackle the tappets.
I need to make sure I have everything on hand as this car is our daily drive. (well we don;t use it daily but 2 or 3 times a week).
What would be the most likely spare parts I'll need if I'm hearing the ticking?
1) Just dirty tappets and need cleaning
2) New tappets due to excessive wear
3) New camshafts due to excessive lobe wear (worst case scenario) - Maybe I have to buy these from Argentina!!
Also looking at this photo of the service kit I bought what are the 8 small circular things (metal casing and rubber insert)?
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3420/gaskets2.jpg
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Brit01 wrote: |
What would be the most likely spare parts I'll need if I'm hearing the ticking?
1) Just dirty tappets and need cleaning
Unlikely
2) New tappets due to excessive wear
If tappets are worn then camshaft(s) will also be worn. Depending on wear these could be reground, or might even be acceptable. Maybe you can get them reground there?
3) New camshafts due to excessive lobe wear (worst case scenario) - Maybe I have to buy these from Argentina!!
You have to be careful to get the correct ones, or at least a pair.
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Personally I wouldn't do anything unless the ticking gets (even slightly) louder - bearing in mind that an engine with hydraulic tappets, or even a solid tappet engine correctly adjusted makes almost no sound.
If you decide to pull the heads, Sod's law will operate, and whatever parts you have will be wrong or insufficient, so better to plan on being without the car for however long it takes to get parts.
| Brit01 wrote: |
Also looking at this photo of the service kit I bought what are the 8 small circular things (metal casing and rubber insert)?
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Valve stem seals. Alfa manual calls them cap seals
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thks Rflower.
| Quote: |
| so better to plan on being without the car for however long it takes to get parts. |
I have a contact in Argentina that deals with alfa spare parts, he has all the tappets and camshafts in stock and travels there every weekend from Uruguay.
So within 7 days I can have the spare parts I require.
Got all the gaskets and seals already as you see.
Is there anything else I'm missing? What are the most likely parts that would need replacing, that I can order as spares?
cheers
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing I can think of unless you find a burnt valve or a bad seat.
If you can get parts within a week I'd simply wait until you can actually see what you need
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Nothing I can think of unless you find a burnt valve or a bad seat |
I think a burnt valve or bad seat would give a low compression no?
I got 185-193 psi on every cylinder.
| Quote: |
| If you can get parts within a week I'd simply wait until you can actually see what you need |
Yes I think that is best.
I'll take it all apart, into my house and take photos of the tappets, lobes etc and get feedback from you guys, then order what I need.
Maybe I see obvious wear on the lobes.
cheers
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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I will be removing the whole unit (camshaft support and head) and taking them inside the house to work on them.
wifey will love that and the fact we won't have transportation for some time. ohh I'm in the dog house now for sure.
Do you know how long the head bolts are?
Also in the manual it says for reassemble that you must tighten the bolts to the specified torque, run the engine to operating temp until the fan kicks in, loosen the nuts, lubricate and retighten.
By how much do I loosen them? Half a turn?? Doesn't specify. How do i lubricate them if I don't remove them. Bit strange.
Yes I have a whole new gasket and oil ring kit.
The head gaskets have the metal rings. Never seen this before.[/b]
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Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01
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Posts: 665
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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The head bolts are about 200mm long.
When reassembling the final tightening torque usually need to be reached
in three steps. Between these steps the head bolts aren't need to be loosened.
The final tightening torque may be different from the factory recommendation,
check the gasket manufacturer's recommendation.
As i know the loosen (1/8 to 1/4 turns) and retighten procedure is required after
the first 500 to 1500 km (only once). Lubrication is not necessarily needed. |
This is what I heard from another member.
Now:
This is a big and new project for me to remove the heads and camshafts to inspect the tappets and camshafts.
The last few months a ticking has developed. Changed oils, filters, addded additives but to no avail. Ticking appears when engine is hot. Oil pressure on cold idle about 65 psi.
Compression 183-193 psi on 4 cylinders.
The previous owner/mechanic informed me he changed the tappets about 20,000 kms ago (but they can fail or get blocked).
Camshafts are original and have about 136000 kms on them.
Could be worn/failed tappets or worn lobes.
So in a week or so I'm planning to take off the heads and inspect everything.
This is the first time I've attempted such a big job.
So first steps:
Write will and arrange funeral as wifey will kill me.
1) drain coolant and remove radiator
2) remove air filter
3) Remove carb linkages and also linkage bar held in place by allen bolts either side
4) Remove carbs
5) Loosen coolant pipes on either sides
6) Remove inlet manifolds from heads
7) Support exhaust manilfold
 Remove exhuast manifold bolts and gaskets
9) Move cranskhaft to TDC and remove timing belts and covers, water pulley.
10) Probably attach a rope around the heads and support from above to assist pulling out of engine bay
11) Loosen 6 head bolts and slide out until they clear the engine block
12) Loosen head from block and lift out of engine bay
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Take heads into house and everything is new from here.
1) Remove camshaft support from heads
2) Inspect tappets (still cloudy aera to me here), slide out tappets?
3) Clamp camshaft pulley into a soft work bench support to lock it in place so I can remove the bolt.
4) Remove triangular covers on other side and slide out camshaft?
5) ? next steps are still cloudy but I guess it will be evident when I open it up.
I will have many questions along the way and will be posting questions.
I will be in a rush as this car is used by my wife!!!
cheers
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Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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One important thing I noticed last night was that the left camshaft pulley was slightly wonky, not aligned properly. But no play in it.
No movement in the bearings but now it's coming to light.
My wife crashed the car last year and the left side was damaged.
I'm suspecting something impacted the camshaft and that is why the pulley wobbles very slightly side to side, just a mm or so, but not the bearing. But maybe this offset the camshaft and slowly caused damage to the lobes and tappets over time.
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Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Good Move!
Blame the wife for the car being off the road while you fix it. 
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Blame the wife for the car being off the road while you fix it. Very Happy |
Exactly - now I have justification 
She was really peaved off last night.
But really this could be the issue. How likely is it that the end of the camshaft got slightly bent and over time caused some damage inside. Possible.
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Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Brit01 wrote: |
| How likely is it that the end of the camshaft got slightly bent and over time caused some damage inside. Possible. |
I'd say pretty unlikely. The wheel wouldn't get bent unless the belt covers were completely smashed in on the left side. And even if the wheel were bent it wouldn't affect the shaft itself.
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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RFlower
Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Anyway, wife should be happy you are fixing car yourself instead of paying incompetent garagista to fcuk it up at great expense.
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Anyway, wife should be happy you are fixing car yourself instead of paying incompetent garagista to fcuk it up at great expense. |
Well you would think that wouldn't you? As long as she can start it and it goes then everything is fine and I shouldn't touch it!!
Usually here in Uruguay they run their cars into the ground, ignoring all signs of parts going wrong then end up with a much bigger bill when it totally fcuks up.
Ever seen the Big Bang Theory episode where the blonde bimbo complains that her car broke?
One of the nerds advised her of the warning lights months ago. She replied: "Sure the warning lights are still working fine but the engine doesn't work anymore!!!"
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Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01
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Posts: 665
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Just been given the contact for a supplier that has parts for AR that some are generic.
tappets:
HL6390
7 quid each i think and come pre-loaded with oil.
Checking out cams and water pumps also.
http://www.bgautomotive.co.uk/PartsView.aspx
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Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Also these BGA fit the following cars!!!:
so should be available in a lot of places.
ALFA ROMEO 145 (1994 - 1996)
ALFA ROMEO 146 (1995 - 1996)
ALFA ROMEO 33 (1987 - 1994)
AUDI 100 (1978 - 1992)
AUDI 100 QUATTRO (1984 - 1991)
AUDI 100 QUATTRO CS (1992 - 1994)
AUDI 200 (1979 - 1989)
AUDI 200 QUATTRO (1984 - 1990)
AUDI 80 (1983 - 1995)
AUDI 80 QUATTRO (1983 - 1995)
AUDI 90 (1984 - 1991)
AUDI 90 QUATTRO (1984 - 1989)
AUDI 90 QUATTRO 20V (1990 - 1991)
AUDI A2 (2000 - 2005)
AUDI A3 (1997 - 1999)
AUDI A4 (1995 - 2000)
AUDI A4 QUATTRO (1995 - 1997)
AUDI A6 (1994 - 1997)
AUDI A6 QUATTRO (1994 - 1997)
AUDI A8 (1994 - 1996)
AUDI A8 QUATTRO (1994 - 1996)
AUDI CABRIOLET (1992 - 1996)
AUDI COUPE (1988 - 1995)
AUDI COUPE QUATTRO (1986 - 1995)
AUDI COUPE QUATTRO 20V (1990 - 1991)
AUDI S6 QUATTRO (1994 - 1997)
FORD ESCORT 1997
FORD GALAXY (1995 - 2006)
FORD SIERRA (1987 - 1989)
FORD SIERRA COSWORTH (1990 - 1993)
MERCEDES-BENZ V280 (1998 - 2003)
OPEL OMEGA (1994 - 1996)
SEAT ALHAMBRA (1996 - 2000)
SEAT AROSA (1997 - 2004)
SEAT CORDOBA (1993 - 2002)
SEAT IBIZA (1986 - 2002)
SEAT INCA (1995 - 1999)
SEAT LEON (2000 - 2005)
SEAT MALAGA (1985 - 1992)
SEAT RONDA (1983 - 1986)
SEAT TOLEDO (1991 - 2006)
SKODA FABIA (2000 - 2007)
SKODA FELICIA (1996 - 2000)
SKODA OCTAVIA (1996 - 2005)
VAUXHALL OMEGA (1994 - 1996)
VOLKSWAGEN BEETLE (1998 - 2005)
VOLKSWAGEN BORA (1999 - 2005)
VOLKSWAGEN CADDY (1995 - 2004)
VOLKSWAGEN CADDY PICKUP (1986 - 2000)
VOLKSWAGEN CARAVELLE (1986 - 2000)
VOLKSWAGEN CORRADO (1989 - 1995)
VOLKSWAGEN CORRADO G60 (1991 - 1993)
VOLKSWAGEN CORRADO VR6 (1992 - 1995)
VOLKSWAGEN CRAFTER 2008
VOLKSWAGEN DERBY (1981 - 1984)
VOLKSWAGEN GOLF (1983 - 2004)
VOLKSWAGEN GOLF TDI (1996 - 1999)
VOLKSWAGEN GOLF VARIANT (1994 - 2003)
VOLKSWAGEN GOLF VR6 (1992 - 1996)
VOLKSWAGEN JETTA (1984 - 1992)
VOLKSWAGEN LT (1989 - 2006)
VOLKSWAGEN LUPO (1999 - 2005)
VOLKSWAGEN MULTIVAN (1996 - 2003)
VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT (1983 - 2000)
VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT TDI (1996 - 1998)
VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT VARIANT (1983 - 2005)
VOLKSWAGEN POLO (1981 - 2005)
VOLKSWAGEN SANTANA (1983 - 1985)
VOLKSWAGEN SCIROCCO (1986 - 1992)
VOLKSWAGEN SHARAN (1995 - 2003)
VOLKSWAGEN TRANSPORTER (1985 - 2001)
VOLKSWAGEN VENTO (1992 - 1997)
WARTBURG 353 (1988 - 1991)
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Brit01
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Before I go ahead and dismantle half the engine would it be worth trying one last attempt - may be an engine flush in case I have blocked oil galleries?
Or would the tappets be noisy when cold and hot with blocked oil galleries?
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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