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Alfa Pages
A forum for help with the Alfasud And Alfa 33
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Solo
Alfa Arna
Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 7
Location: Russia
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:20 pm Post subject: 16V spark plugs |
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So, what is the common wisdom, stories about spark plugs for a cat. version
of Alfa 33 16V (made in 1990)?
NGK PFR6B
NGK PFR6B-11? (what's the difference by the way)
Golden Lodge 25HLD?
Any other candidates? |
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tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:42 am Post subject: Re: 16V spark plugs |
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| Solo wrote: |
So, what is the common wisdom, stories about spark plugs for a cat. version
of Alfa 33 16V (made in 1990)?
NGK PFR6B
NGK PFR6B-11? (what's the difference by the way)
Golden Lodge 25HLD?
Any other candidates? |
There could be also Denso Iridium kind sparks as cheaper alternate to NGK platinum. They should be better then platinum ones, since iridium is better, but it has to be tested.
NGK PFR6B was only spark recomended 16v, but since 1998 even AR original parts give you GL 25 HLD as replacement spark for 16v. I imagine it could be two reasons for it:
1) it is cheaper, and nobody normal will put expencive sparks into troublesome oily 16v engines at end of its life
2) NGK platinum lost some of it's qualitiy.
I don't know difference between that two NGKs.
GLs are same heat type as NGKs but their self cleaning temp is higher and their build quality is lower, leading to that they rarely last longer then 20k km, while usualy it is 10-15k km of city driving.
So you end up changing them very frequently  , NGKs last 50-60k km of same city driving, or up to 100k km of outer of city.
Tino
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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Solo
Alfa Arna
Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 7
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:40 pm Post subject: Denso IK20 |
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| So, Denso IK20 seems to be the thing to try? |
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tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Denso IK20 |
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| Solo wrote: |
| So, Denso IK20 seems to be the thing to try? |
At the moment I test it on my 16v, I should remove it from engine to see state of it, but I'm lazy.
I drive a lot with cold engine, some 4-5km then turn it off, my engine consumes a lot of oil, and a rebuild would be good.
But for a year and 3 months I've been using LPG mainly I didn't change plugs GL 25HLD are still inside.
What I can tell you is that since then I changed only one 25 HLD spark, and it has passed about 25k km. Fuel here in Croatia is highly suphure.
That one that I have changed is because it's insulation inside broken only after 5k km, as I said due to high build quality.
And runing on unleaded 98 they would start to foul around 7k km, and I would change them at 10k km, so I would eun up changing them twice a year.
So as you see because of cleaner fuel in this case propan butan gas spark plugs last much longer, on same oily engine.
Replacement plug for that 25HLD was denso iridium, which is NOT good at all, to have two kinds of spak plugs at engine, but since I fitted it into
cyl no.1 which is known for oiling and fueling plugs, I wanted to see how it will cope with it.
I'll soon remove and take pictures of them.
Also thanks to Keith I have original AR NGK platinums, so I'll take a picture of them also, to compare sizes of all 3 plugs and I presume that someone will put it somewhere on web.
Tino
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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Scott Sander
Alfa 33
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 419
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
I use the NGK PFR6B's that Alfa spec. They run faultlessly (50K km's so far) so I see no need to mess around with different brands, etc 
_________________
Scott Sander
'91 Alfa 33 Boxer 16V Monza - Awesome
http://www.sanderfamily.com |
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tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Scott Sander wrote: |
Hi,
I use the NGK PFR6B's that Alfa spec. They run faultlessly (50K km's so far) so I see no need to mess around with different brands, etc |
In case you can buy them that is.
In my case I searched for them for last 4 years, and moment I bought Denso, someone started importing NGKs in my country.
When I bought car in 1998 there were 4 left on shelf or AR dealer that I bought but my mechanic told me that they he can fit them but they are not for 16v, REAL 16v should have 4 electrodes, like GL (o boy was I stupid to listen to him, and returned NGKs to store, of corse half year later when I got smarter they were sold and AR store held only original AR GLs)
I tried ordering them few times but were never delivered from AR in Italy to local dealer.
Tino
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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Solo
Alfa Arna
Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 7
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well, in my car I have original NGK PFR6B (from the previous owner)
But due to the bad 95 petrol, they are all covered with thick RED substance,
from the anti-detonating additives they use in Russia.
Now here I can buy NGK PFR6B-11 (don't know if there's a difference with this 11 number)
And Denso PK20PR-P8 (also seems to be platinum)
In short, it was decided that in all cases the usual spark plug change
interval should be 10 000km anyway, so why bother...
Some local 33 16V owners said that the 4-prong Golden Lodge 25HLD were giving
much better throttle response and drivability than NGK. |
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tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Solo wrote: |
Well, in my car I have original NGK PFR6B (from the previous owner)
But due to the bad 95 petrol, they are all covered with thick RED substance,
from the anti-detonating additives they use in Russia.
Now here I can buy NGK PFR6B-11 (don't know if there's a difference with this 11 number)
And Denso PK20PR-P8 (also seems to be platinum)
In short, it was decided that in all cases the usual spark plug change
interval should be 10 000km anyway, so why bother...
Some local 33 16V owners said that the 4-prong Golden Lodge 25HLD were giving
much better throttle response and drivability than NGK. |
Changing sparks on 16v is 20-30minutes for experianced man with spanner or original AR tool, unexperianced or without tool it can be from 2-3 hours.
There is no need at all to change NGK PFR6B, before 50k km, only if you wish to clean ti or to be sure that it didn't oxidated to engine.
Changing any platinum or iridium spark on 10k km is waste of money.
Red deposit can be also caused by cooling liquid getting into cyls,or even from combination of engine oil you use and fuel.
With every spark plug change you risk of damaging spark plug cables, original cables are very expencive, engine is optimised for them (right resistance), and they are only ones I've seen that have longer spark plug rubber cap that helps you puting it on, and removing it when changing plugs.
also with every spark plug change you risk of introducing dirt into cylinders, screwing spark plug wrongly (damaging head) which is easy on 16v because you don't see plug holes, you have to be very very carefull about it.
As someone that has changed sparplugs for last 4 years all by myself, every 7-10k km, I know what I'm talking about, it may be fun in begining but in long term it is time, energy and money consuming.
Tino
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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Solo
Alfa Arna
Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 7
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:10 am Post subject: |
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By the way, how this famous alfa-spark-plug-tool looks like?
I ended up taking the standard 16x21 spark-plug tube, cuting out 21mm end, and
fitting the 19mm bolthead on it.
With it it's possible to remove all plugs except #3
For #3 (nearest to the passenger in LHD version) I have to slightly lift
that side of the engine by a crowbar, and the tool will slip in place.
As for deposit, well, there's no shortage of cooling liquid or oil, and
this red deposit is quite common here... due to bad fuel.
The wires are silicon (and orange color), do not seem to be original, but are fitting perfectly.
Yes, the first dissasembly took several hours, mainly by cutting/adjusting the tool,
but the assembly about 30 minutes.
I guess with the right tool it will be even faster. |
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Admin
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 1223
Location: Stafford, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
The standard tool is a plug spanner with a (19mm?) hexagonal bar on the end. This goes with a 19mm ratchet spanner. You put the plug spanner in place then put the ratchet spanner over then end. The hex section is probably about 4cm long. Sounds like you have made yourself something quite close to it.
All the best
Keith |
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RpmHead
Alfasud
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 52
Location: Oslo, Norway
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:15 pm Post subject: Types of PFR6B |
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To sorten out of the NGK PFR6B stuff:
PFR6B-11 is looking exactly like the standard PFR6B but it has
an electrode distance of 1,1mm.
(PFR6B has an electrode distance of 0,7mm.)
The same for PFR6B-11B, but with a different earth electrode.
Important! Only use the PFR6B type in 16V's!
_________________
Stian Henriksen, Norway
'92 33 QV S 16V
'66 Giulia Sprint GT Veloce
'69 Giulia Super |
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