Alfa Pages

[Brit01]

Just received a new pump (QH) and just can't get it to pump.

Spent 4 hours going back and forth with old and new pump.
Old pump is getting tired but still works..

Now why isn't the new one pumping. Puzzles me.
All fuel lines checked, fittings etc

Took it apart and all looks perfect. 1 way valves do look tighter fitting then the ones on the original pump.

Very strange.

Any idea?
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Bellamachinna]

Probably new pump is defective...

Can you get your money back??
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All'interno della mia macchina, vi sedete, tenete sopra e CHIUDETE IN SU...

[Brit01]

Not worth sending it back. 7000 mile journey

I took it apart and it all appears very good. All valves good, diaphragm excellent. Can't see any defects with it.

Maybe it needs more fuel inside it to start priming?

The 1 way valves appears very stiff though.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Brit01]

any other ideas guys?

You think the gasket thickness could play a part in it?
The fiat gaskets are the same but vary from 0.3mm - 1.2mm maybe depending on how worn the rod is.

Maybe worth trying a thinner gasket.

Or is it just a matter of priming; maybe using a syringe to fill the pump up fully before starting?
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[BigAl]

Could the rod be too long/short, not allowing correct deflection of the diaphragm?
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

[Brit01]

rod is 116.80 mm.

I guess this is where the correct thickness of the gaskets will come into play.

mmm.. If it's not pumping would it be most likely that the gaskets are too thick? Tricky one.

Anyone know the original thickness of the alfa romeo gaskets?
The fiats as I mentioned come in many thickness choices.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Admin]

Hi

From memory on very early 'suds the shafts were in different lengths to allow for production differences. But were standardised on later ones.

All the best

Keith
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I owe, I owe, its off to work we go.
Bimota Forum
Stafford Christmas Lights

[Brit01]

It's working!!

Not sure why it didn't start with me.

My local mechanic got it going no problems. Sounds crisper, or maybe just my imagination.

Well still got an annoying flat spot around 2000 rpm.

So will try larger idles again.

I was advised if this doesn't work sometimes large air corrector jets can make the mains come into play earlier and wipe out this lean area around 2000 rpm.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Brit01]

Been advised to take a closer look at the pump jets delivery first.
This can cause uneven acceleration in many cases if they are not working equally.

Never measured them before.

Any tips on a DIY container to measure the fuel while manually pumping them?
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Brit01]

pump jets all fine.

Further diagnosis points to the ignition coil now.

Sometimes the engine struggles to fire at start up.
The tachometer flickers between 2-3000 rpm.
Coil is 24 years old.

We're going to change to coil to eliminate this possibility.
Bosch coil.

What secondary voltage do these give out?
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Bobkelso]

Hi Brit,
on my 1.3vl twin-carb there is a similar coil (bosh),
not sure identical to your, Bosh code for 1.3-1.5 vl coil are:
- 0 221 122 323 or 0 221 122 334 until date 03-92
- 0 221 122 451 or 0 221 122 334 from date 03-92
probably all same specifications, different only in exterior;
can you read the bosh code on your coil?

On a forum for the Bosh 0 221 122 334 coil one says:

- Primary coil resistance 0.6-0.8 ohm
(between output 1 and 15)

- Secondary coil resistance 6.9-8.5 kohm
(between output 1 (??may be this is an error,
I think it cannot be the same of the primary)
and the high tension output)

What I read about:
measuring the resistance is a simple way to see
if coil is still well working but not 100% sure method,
it reveals evident inner shortcuts that lower the voltage
the coil can supply but not minor shortcuts that can
verify at high voltage or high temperature during actual use.

To probe 100% a coil "under use" is used a special (professional)
electronic tester where the coil should be mounted;
or you can do an indirect test with coin in the car with another
electronic tester that counts electric signals from ignition cables,
but it reveal only misfiring at some rmp on some cables,
don't think it can reveal also the power of the signals..

So maybe one prefers to try another coil to see if something
goes better, from another donor car or new (bosh coil
here is about 60-70e, not a gift for a simple test).

I don't know if there is a DIY method (using a tester
with the coil and motor running at idle, measuring
Ampere in the cable or Volt, or with an oscilloscope to 'see'
the form of the electric output), if someone on the forum
know one I'll be very interested to know..
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Alfa 33

[Brit01]

No donors available I'm afraid. Yes an oscilloscope is required and is not easy.

i think the numbers on the coil are 0 221 122 317 but I need to check that.
Probably all the same but I thought the non-ballasted primaries had a resistance around 3 ohms. Maybe wrong.

A local supplier of Bosch has one in stock.

Mine is 24 years old, probably time to renew it anyway as I have new rotor/cap and cables.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Bobkelso]

uhm.. I tried on the bosh catalog on line, it confirms
0 221 122 317 coil for your 33

http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/public/catalog

The item is discontinued from 2011, so if you have
found one in stock is a good thing.

On some other catalog vendors (not from bosh)
the codes 0 221 122 451 / 0 221 122 334
are used as alternative to your
0 221 122 317 but it is not sure
the specification are identical..

If you will measure the resistance of the
old/new coil I'll be curious to know ohm values,
because I know very little about ignition coils.. ''
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Alfa 33

[Brit01]

Thanks mate for checking.

I know very little also. Got good help from Guy Croft and also alfaowner.com.

There is a Brazilian factory for Bosch here so I imagine they have surplus from this factory or they are still making it there.

He said just one left (all salesmen tend to say this).
I'll pick it up next week and measure the resistances.

Hope it solves my carb issue and not wasting my money!
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Brit01]

Some other models using the same coil:
Citroen BX 1.6 from 10.'87 to 05.'92
Peugeot 205 S1, 1.4 from 02.'83 to 10.'87
Peugeot 205 S2, 1.1 and 1.4 from 01.'87 to 07.'88
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Bobkelso]

Hi Brit,
..just verified a little more..most spare vendors
don't mix bosh coil code ...317 (1.7 8v '89)
with bosh coil code ...334 (1.3 v.l and others after '90),
probably they are little different (may be could be a
little different also the electronic module on the dizzy)..
I also read that primary coil usually is 1,5-3 ohm
(and the value is used on first approximation to sort
coils compatible with a particular electronic module),
so maybe the data I founded on a forum
of 0,6-0,8 ohm should be verified..

Here an example list of (old) cars with that 0221122317 coil
http://www.webdealauto.com/fr/Bobine+d+allumage/BOSCH+0221122317/689.207595.html#references

and for the 0221122334 coil
http://www.webdealauto.com/fr/Bobine+d+allumage/BOSCH+0221122334.689.207598.7443.html

I read your posts here and on Guy Croft on your motor rebuild,
very interesting and useful for every 33 owner
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Alfa 33

[Bobkelso]

Just a doubt..
it is impossible that (if is electric?) hesitation your motor have
at 2000 RPM could be caused by the modified ignition cables?

I mean, all the ignition circuit is tuned to dissipate not useful
electric oscillations and disturbances..using racing ignition
cables you have probably removed some resistance (ohm)
and modified impedance in general (L, C, R) of the circuit..
not a bad thing if you search for strong sparks but maybe some
electric resonance (disturbance) come in at a precise frequency/rpm ?
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Alfa 33

[Brit01]

Thanks for your thoughs here but no the ignition cables worked superb for the first 1.5 years of use, much better than the old original ones.


The racing cable are totally insulated not letting any frequency in or out.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Bobkelso]

[Brit01]

0 221 122 317 just purchased.
Last one in stock from when they were discontinued. How lucky!

1.5 ohms on the primary. Guess that is ok no?

At the weekend I will test it.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Bobkelso]

..I think so, because is bosch brand new..
It must be right..they are Germans!

Some say prymary is 1.5, some say 0.8 (Citroen BX owner),
may be there is a some confusion on exact coil version
and 0.8 is the data post '90 bosch ....334 coil.

Did you measure that way?

http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubleshooting/ss/coil-test-ohm_2.htm

http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubleshooting/ss/coil-test-ohm_3.htm

From your experience it will be interesting to know how new spare
compare (primary and secondary resistance) to the old one
it will replace to undestand if more than 20 years/150.000km
can be enought for a coil or not..
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Alfa 33

[Brit01]

Yes I measured the primary that way.

I didn't measure the secondary. I thought that only opened when power is introduced.
So when closed there is not resistance. Strange.
I will try tonight.
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Brit01]

Secondary measures 8.91K
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Brit01]

I understood that mine was non-ballasted but do the non-ballasted coils measure 1.5 ohms??

I thought they measured 3 ohms for non-ballasted. Or does it depend on the model of car?


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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi)

[Bobkelso]

..uhm..cancelling my double post..
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Alfa 33