Alfa Pages

[eddie]

Guys......please HELP!

I recently stripped down both front struts of my very late sud sprint (1989 qv 1.7) to replace the lower bearings and on trying to refit the offside, it doesn't go back square with the lower spring pan. The near side goes back together fine. Thinking I'd done something to the offside spring or lower spring pan, I checked them and they are fine. Both springs are exactly the same (5 turns) and I even got a spare lower spring pan from John at justsuds (yep the correct handed part) and it's also fine.

Basically when I try to refit the offside sprint to the lower spring pan the spring sits at an odd angle, pulling the spring off-centre to the strut coming thru it. If I try to then fit the top spring pan to do it up, it Just twists the lower spring pan out of square, pulling the lower bearing to bits..........Which is obviously not right.

I've tried swapping over the springs in case the spring was damaged, but that didn't work. Then I sat the pondering and when I looked at the two matched lower spring pans side by side, I'm really puzzled cos the start of the spring when seated in the lower spring pans (the kink in the outer edge of the pan that the spring nestles into), well they run different ways to each other, i.e., one heads off at and angle towards the bottoms of the strut whilst the other side leads off in the other direction i.e., up the strut........so no wonder the spring on the offside sits at an odd angle (based on the springs being identical) but then that would mean it's been designed like that.......which it obviosuly won't have been..........

Am I missing something very obvious here........should the offside spring start in that obvious kink/nestle point - I think so........, both spring pans are opposite hands (which they should be)...but it just doens't add up. Is it me, or has anyone else come across something similar?

Help!!

Cheers, Ed
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Cheers,

Eddie

[Oggie]

Sound as if something is stopping the spring seating correctly from the top mount not the bottom one, have you checked against the opposite side that sits ok?.
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PHAT 33

[eddie]

Cheers mate. Well it all seems to start at the lower spring pan, even before the top pan is mounted up.
However, managed to get the back together tonight by using 3 spring clamps, to pull the spring over a little. This seems better, but I'm still not happy with the lower bearing, it's definitely not perfectly square, but I'll keep a close eyeon it and see how it goes.
Also spoke to John at Justsuds today and seemto have some odd front springs......they are 321mm free length, 175mm dia, 13mm thick but only have 4 complete coil turns (rather than the usual 4.75 and later 5 turns versions)........so being Alfa was a classic 'parts bin assembler'.....god knows what they are from.

Anyhow, cheers, appreciate the thinking.

Ed
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Cheers,

Eddie

[Oggie]

Funny that, I had an odd spring and lower spring pan several years ago, didn't affect the handling but due to a rust on the lower pan I had to change the struts to a later 16v 4 bolt jobbies.
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PHAT 33

[888dee]

Just had this link sent on to me by someone on 155.org

I had exactly the same problem you are describing with my s3 16v SW

Took the struts to bits to over haul them and sort a few other issues and couldn't get the damn things to go together again properly...

After a VERY long time trying to figure out what was going on I eventually got another pair of complete struts which showed the lower spring pans are indeed handed with the kink for the tail of the spring on the trailing edge...

So if your spring pans are all the same you need to get the opposite one

[eddie]

Well the ones I have are definitely handed and so are the struts.....all beyond me. Anyhow have got it back together again, about to drop it down and take it for a gentle and easy test drive.......hopefully this won't be my last message.......out
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Cheers,

Eddie

[paulhide]

There are two types of spring pan, which end in different places for two types of spring. One pair have a kink nearer the front (early 1.5?) and the other pair nearer the sides.

Yeah scratch this - I think I was getting mixed up (as mentioned below) with the two types of top rubber - with 90 degree difference.
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Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188

[eddie]

Cheers Paul, that sounds like it could be what I've got here- the parts have been on the car for a very long time, so I'm guessing it was either built with the wrong o/s one (classic Alfa "parts bin" mentality) or someone has mixed them up whilst putting on some odd springs (321mm free length, which I can find no reference to in any sprint or 33 documentation).

If I replace the springs in the near future, I'll look at getting hold of the other type of spring pan.

Cheers again,

Eddie
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Cheers,

Eddie

[Bobkelso]

Hi..sorry not sure I understood all what you have described,
as my English is limitated..you already verified you are not using
the lower spring plate for left side at the right side ?
(as you know they are not the same)

Another possible problem is if the upper plate is not well
assembled: in 33 (I think is like yours) it is done by two metal
parts and one rubber part, the two metal part can be assembled
with the correct "phase"(there is a small indent to mark that)
but can be also assembled with a 90° phase error (the small
indent in that case will not go in place and coil get a strange angle,
my father did one time this error one side and car steering was odd)..

321 mm coil is the standard coil for petrol fuel 33 of years 89-90
(and I think also for previous version)
and of later version from 90 to half 91 (see work manual, the page
is reported also in this site at the pages Alfa 33 info); after 06-91
all 33 used the 'sport' coil 311 mm and shorter shock absorber
that before where used only in some sport version, this improved
a little steering (more rapid as car was lower at the front and
suspension struts where now more verticals) and the 'look'.

Another possibility is your assembly is quite ok:
I tried some different shock absorbers and coils
and extrapolated a sort of table of matching
depending on shock and coil length.
In practice if you have one shock absorber quite long you
can have very small coil pre-charge and lower spring plate will
look (a little, some 5-10°) angled ONLY when strut is not compressed,
so not a problem for the bearing, but if pre-charge is very small
(for ex only 5 mm) coil could move/rotate out of the optimal
positioning during drive...but if you have more pre-charge
and spring plates are still angled the problem is another.
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Alfa 33

[eddie]

Thanks for the info, very much appreciated. My sprint has been for a couple of drives now and all seems well. The o/s bearing looks to be squarer now, probably because of the weight on it, so that's ok, I'm happy now, even though I still don't really understand why the o/s lower spring pan and spring was so off centre.

I was very interested to read that you know the 321mm spring was standard on petrol cars from 89-90, as I've never seen it in all the various PDF copies of 33 workshop manuals and supplements thatbimhave. Also every motor factor ( vendor of car parts in the uk) I can find only lists the 335mm length spring, which would obviously be too long for my sprint. Do you know a supplier of the 321mm spring?

Of course I did then notice that the latest PDF manual I have is May 88, so that could be why.

Is there a link to the 89-90 PDF manual or supplement, as that would be extremely useful for the 1989 33 mechanicals of my sprint.

Thanks again
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Cheers,

Eddie

[Bobkelso]

Hi, try search
"alfa 33 work manual",
"alfa sprint work manual" (corrected my errata)
there are two hungarian sites
(and others sites) with useful material.

About 33, just reading manuals it seams model 83 had
different front spring and different shims and bearing
(spring 293mm and later (88') spring 310mm,
plus a massive 333mm for TD version),
but I never dismantle one of this 33 series 1.

Model 89' (light facelift, or some call them series 2)
is instead similar to model '90 (series 3)
(standard spring 321mm with 4,75 turns, 2550 gr
one other spring type, with 4 turns, 2245 gr,
probably a sport lower type, and one other type for 4X4)
but it still lacks of the small upper bearing added in '90
for more precision (so the shock-absorbers have similar
height but with little different stem final machined part,
16mm diameter instead of 12mm of '90 model)

After '90 (until the modification of '93 series 4, strut with 3 upper bolts)
there are only two coil types, the same standard 321mm 2550 gr
and a new sport lower coil 311mm 2400 gr, standard after 06-91
(plus one massive 335mm type coil 5,75 turns for TD 33, 3600gr);
shock-absorbers boge original type where available in many
different alfa codes (different regulation and different stem length),
the longer ones where the ones of first 33 twin carb 1.3-1.5 of '90,
they are compatible only with the long 321mm coil to guarantee
a minimum safe coil pre-charge; measuring from where goes
the lower yellow plastic bearing and the end of the chromed part
of the stem they measure 225,5 mm; some other boge alfa shocks
are 3-5 mm shorter and are compatible with both coil 321-311;
some other are 10-15 mm shorter (210 mm) and are good only
with the sport 311mm coil..

For 33 from 89' you can have spare codes using EPER
fiat-alfa-lancia catalogue (on cd-rom or free on line, slower but working)!
I don't know where to buy new coils, probably NLA..
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Alfa 33

[eddie]

Thanks mate, mine are definitely the 4 turn 321mm ones, so I'll have a search for those manuals.

Cheers again for your help.

Eddie

[Bobkelso]

..corrected my errata in previous post,
actually best search is "alfa sprint work manual"..
Good reading!
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Alfa 33