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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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 Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:15 pm Post subject: 16v hydraulic tappets (and it was something else - big end!) |
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Had a bit of a disaster with the new green 16v SW on Sunday. Alternator belt started squealing then broke 3 miles from home. Debris into the OS cambelt casing and caused the belt to jump some teeth. Ended up with valve heads in the inlet port, and a possible smashed water gallery (sump was half full of water).
Anyway, not to be deterred, I have a spare engine, so have spent the last 2 days belting it, cleaning it, and installing it. Got it running mid afternoon.
This engine is meant to be good, and fairly low mileage, but has been sitting for a while.
On start up, it sounded very cammy (tappet, cam knock kind of thing) but got progressively quieter as I let it tick over, and stopped and restarted several times (checking for leaks etc).
It now ticks over as sweet as a nut, but on revving with no load, still sounds noisy on the cam end of things.
Oil pressure seems to be fine.
I was brave enough to take it for a gentle spin round the block. Under load up to about 2.5k RPM (didn't venture above that really), the engine sounds find, but noticeable same rattley sound on over-run, or rev drops between shifts.
So the workshop question is - what's this all about? I had an idea it might be sluggish hydraulic tappets, but not 100% sure yet.
Any ideas? Apologies, I know its difficult to diagnose on a forum without hearing the noise. I can only describe it as top end noise.
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Last edited by The Wombat on Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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If it got progressively quieter sounds like tappets.
If they are damaged or sticking bring careful as they could damage the cams.
Don't ask how I know
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Appreciated.
Any techniques for bringing them out of hibernation? Flushing oil?
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Drivers:
- Green Fiat 20VT Coupe
- Champagne 155 V6
- Winter Freelander
- Mrs Wombats Freelander
Projects:
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- 75 3.0 Cloverleaf
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The Wombat wrote: |
Appreciated.
Any techniques for bringing them out of hibernation? Flushing oil? |
If it is the tappets a flush may do the trick (or make it worse!).
I tried with mine with some Liqui Moly tappets cleaner and then a thinner oil. Nothing!
Pulled the heads off and found the faces of 2 tappets smashed in along with 2 destroyed lobes on the cams. Oil pump had sucked up some metal fragments also!
Hope its not that for you especially with a 16v.
try the 30 second rev trick.
stationary - take 30 secs to rev up to 3000 rpm slowly
then back to idle and repeat several times.
works for some if they are just blocked.
I imagine if it was the big ends it would knock more when hot.
hydraulic tappets should be quiet if working properly. only mechanical tappets make a noise.
No loose nuts on the exhaust manifold or anything silly like that?
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info.
I must admit I am really not sure on this one. The engine idles as quietly as any 16v engine I have come across, and slowly revving it up to 2500rpm it sounds like any other 16v. Then the knock starts, and is very noticeable when you cut the revs, and then quieter again.
No oil light flickering, although it might be useful to put a proper pressure gauge on it.
I am starting to think a big end, but need a second opinion from someone listening to it. I have a 155.orger dropping in tomorrow and will ask their thoughts. I am thinking that if a big end is on the way out, I will drop the sump and conrods and see what state the crank is in. Maybe its soon enough to put a new set of shells in.
The engine was meant to be a good low mileage one, so I can only think that something has sludged up while it has been sat.
Won't be driving an SW to NAD I guess!!
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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good luck!
yep engines don't like to be sitting around unused for a long time!
Sometimes a full rebuild is needed.
But you say its intermittent??
My tappet sound was constant and worse when hot due to thinner hot oil.
big ends would be the same no?
something vibrating at a certain frequency?
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again.
The knock is not actually intermittent, its not there at low revs, and is there above 2500rpm, and quite noticeable when the throttle is closed, then gone again as the engine returns to tick over. It is there hot or cold.
I am starting to think big end, so will get that second opinion tomorrow and go from there. Inspecting the crank is probably the next option, which I think I can do by dropping the sump off and removing the oil pump with the engine in the car, then taking off the con rod caps one at a time.
Must say its a bit frustrating, firstly damaging the original engine by snapping an alternator belt, then finding the good spare engine I had is not so good after all!!
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Brit01
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The Wombat wrote: |
Thanks again.
The knock is not actually intermittent, its not there at low revs, and is there above 2500rpm, and quite noticeable when the throttle is closed, then gone again as the engine returns to tick over. It is there hot or cold.
I am starting to think big end, so will get that second opinion tomorrow and go from there. Inspecting the crank is probably the next option, which I think I can do by dropping the sump off and removing the oil pump with the engine in the car, then taking off the con rod caps one at a time.
Must say its a bit frustrating, firstly damaging the original engine by snapping an alternator belt, then finding the good spare engine I had is not so good after all!! |
I imagine you could change all big ends in 1 day or less.
yeh drop the sump (check the sump for metal debris), pull out the pump and slide in some new bearings on each rod.
bit of a PITA working upside down for some time though like that. use a comfortable support under your back!
take the old ones old and see if they have a lot of wear/scouring.
big ends are not too expensive as long as the crank journal is not damaged!!
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S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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lee16v
16 Valve
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1429
Location: Devon, UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say big ends too.
When I mullered mine at Spa and attempted to drive it all was ok at lower revs and then the knock would appear higher up. This occurred at less and less revs until it gave up all together!
I reckon you should be ok just replacing the shells. |
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Yep, 155.org friend confirmed, big ends we reckon.
Will order some new shells next week and get it sorted. The car is really nice to drive, so keen to keep it as my runaround until the autumn.
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Drivers:
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 388
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
depending on the damage you might want to replace the rod as well.
I've run across a number of 8V and 16V boxers on which the rod was damaged (oval) with very little damage to the shells and no damage to the crank.
Regards,
zp |
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ZeNiTh-PbArM wrote: |
Hi,
depending on the damage you might want to replace the rod as well.
I've run across a number of 8V and 16V boxers on which the rod was damaged (oval) with very little damage to the shells and no damage to the crank.
Regards,
zp |
Thanks for the info. Certainly interesting.
I have just bitten the bullet today and installed a new set of standard shells as a fast repair. It is a bit of a risk, but if it works, the car will be back on the road. If not, I will end up rebuilding the engine.
When I dropped the shells out, number 4 was the issue. The bearing was badly worn and scored. The crank journal had a few discoloured streaks, and I could just about feel some surface imperfections, although very very slight. Advice from an old racing engine builder was clean up the journal with fine emery tape, and see if it could be made to look the same as the others. Still a risk, but it cleaned up OK.
As soon as I get the sump back on, I will report back. Could be a total disaster although not expensive so far.
However, I noticed one head is weeping a little coolant at the gasket, so wonder what that will be like under pressure.
Bit of a pain really, but all good knowledge building of these engines.
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lee16v
16 Valve
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1429
Location: Devon, UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mine was number 4......first one to get starved of oil. I blew the oil ways in the crank with an airline to make sure they were clear also. |
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Shells in, sump back on, and all buttoned up tight.
I cranked the engine by hand to start with, and then span it on the starter until the oil pressure light went out, then (reconnecting the coil) started it.
Just had it ticking over so far and going through a few fan cycles, but all seems OK as a starting point (i.e. the cleanup, new parts, and re-assembley were OK, shells were the right size etc).
Gently revved it to 2500 which is where the rattle was obvious before with no load, and it all seems nice and quiet. There is a bit of a tappet tick, but nothing worrying.
I am away for the weekend (in my 155 Q4 which I just got MOTed and taxed to fill the gap while the 75 is off the road), but will start test driving it next week to get everything bedded in.
We will see how long it lasts!!
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Drivers:
- Green Fiat 20VT Coupe
- Champagne 155 V6
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Hibernating for 2015
- 75 3.0 Cloverleaf
- 155 Q4 Winny
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johnboy
16 Valve
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1061
Location: margate U.K
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Good luck with it chap! Fingers crossed it holds together 
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WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!
Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet |
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BigAl
P4
Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 2990
Location: U.K Surrey
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Nice one, bed in for 2k despite what people say.
where did you get the big end shells from? I had problems sourcing mine.
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x2 33 16v
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, taking it very carefully so far. Gentle acceleration, no hard deceleration, and no more that 2.5k for a few hundred miles with some varied revs.
Will build it up slowly.
I got the shells from the following:
http://www.enginepartsuk.net/node/7
Gave them a call and they got me a set in two days for a tenner or so more. Had to get them from Belgium apparently.
Also found them here:
http://seekpart24.com/alfa-romeo/33-sportwagon-907b-90/1-7-16v-8400/big-end-bearings-100525
They could also get them but took a bit longer.
Fingers crossed as its a very nice car to drive. Will use it for the rest of the summer, then into winter storage and next year get the bodywork sorted, painted, recaro interior, and possibly get the P4 running gear and boot floor into it.
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Projects:
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Hibernating for 2015
- 75 3.0 Cloverleaf
- 155 Q4 Winny
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BigAl
P4
Joined: 06 May 2003
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Location: U.K Surrey
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:08 am Post subject: |
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The tenner was extravto get delivery in 2 days rather than 10. Begian post being what it is!!!
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BigAl
P4
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think it was 52 inc VAT
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BigAl
P4
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Oggie
Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 811
Location: Whitehill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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On the 2 occasions I had spun a bearing the big end crank and con rods had to be replaced also and the new crank was crack tested, unless you re-grind it and fit larger shells then I don't think your problems are over, sorry to sound like a misery guts.
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 190
Location: Milan - Italy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi Wombat,
I read the post about your 75 and this about the 33,
I think you are in a moment of your motor-head life
where you are fighting against Murphy laws.. 
You have all spares and skills needed, hold on until it will pass  |
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The Wombat
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Deepest darkest Huntingdonshire
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Oggie wrote: |
| On the 2 occasions I had spun a bearing the big end crank and con rods had to be replaced also and the new crank was crack tested, unless you re-grind it and fit larger shells then I don't think your problems are over, sorry to sound like a misery guts. |
I guess we will see. The big end didn't spin, it was just worn and a little scored.
So far so good though
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- Champagne 155 V6
- Winter Freelander
- Mrs Wombats Freelander
Projects:
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Hibernating for 2015
- 75 3.0 Cloverleaf
- 155 Q4 Winny
- Red 33 16v |
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